Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think it would start mattering to you if you ever decided to sell your collection, and you ended up only receiving 50% of what you paid minus seller's commission and buyer's premium. So if you had a collection that you paid $10,000 for, and it ended up selling for $5000, and then the auction house takes out the BP of 20% for $1000, and seller's commission of 10% for $400, and therefore your net is only $3600, you would be shaking your head.

The point here is why did you think that $100 was a reasonable price to pay for that card? Perhaps it was because you saw past sales for that card (or similar cards) for $100. However, what if all of those past sales that you saw were all shilled up. Then you would be basing what you thought were completely reasonable prices to pay for cards based upon fraudulent data.

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% sellers commission they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.

[phabphour20]

Always fun reading these conversations. I think the reason why so many of Rick's auctions are shilled is the same reason why Rick has so many darn auctions... his rates are the best around. If I'm selling a card over $1k, I will flat out get more money for it (after all fees) if Rick sells it for me. So a lot of people will send him stuff to sell.

Then, to degenerates in our hobby, and they are legion, the third party seller allows you the option to shill your own auctions. Rick really cannot control this. How is he to know that I sent the card and then had my wife bid on the auctions? It is impossible. Same goes for eBay monitoring this. So because he has good rates and gets top prices (partially from consignor's shilling), he gets lots of inventory to sell and attracts degenerate sellers looking for a few extra bucks.

I am IN NO WAY defending shilling. It is despicable and a stain on this hobby. But I really don't think you can fault Rick for it. He has virtually no way to police it, even if he wanted to.

-Brian Ronde@u

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by phabphour20

Rick really cannot control this. How is he to know that I sent the card and then had my wife bid on the auctions? It is impossible. Same goes for eBay monitoring this.

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

[phabphour20]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

Definitely a fair point.

[drcy]

My answer is more straight foreword and simple: Shilling is illegal, and well known hobby executives are in or soon will be in prison in part for the practice.

To be candid, it blows my mind a dealer would post on a public chat board that he thinks an illegal practice that involves deceiving customers out of their money is okay and justifies the practice. I mean, irrelevant to what are your personal thoughts on the ethics of the practice (and I understand there are honest differences of opinions and viewpoints on the practice), how stupid can one be? It's like a tax accounting posting on a board that an accounting fudging income numbers if fine with him, or a new restaurant owner posting on the local foodie board that he doesn't understand what's wrong with a cook spitting on the raw pizza because if because its cooked at 500 degrees. "Explain this to me: You're using social media to try and convince people to come and eat at your restaurant?"

For me, I think shilling is unethical and it's illegal-- a double whammy for me. I also know that an auction house or dealer does one deceptive practice, more than likely does more than one. You may not know what are the other unethical practices (alterations? deception in the sales descriptions?), but if you identify a seller as using a unethical (or worse) practice, you have identified an ethical seller. If that's not enough to convince a collector to bid elsewhere, there's nothing else I can do. But don't cry to me Argentina if a seller you know breaks the law by shilling also turns out to have sold you an altered item or overembellished the description, because I'll say "And you're somehow shocked that an unethical seller would act unethically?"

I point out that well known hobby executives in the news were prosecuted for shilling AND not disclosing at sale that items were altered and that independent scientific evidence pointed to certain items not being authentic.

My opinion is that the people who boast on a chat board that they, as bidders, have control over shilling going on and it doesn't effect or bother them because they do their homework or bid only what they're willing to bid or whatever, most likely don't have a clue. To me at least, such posts show ignorance and my guess is most of those posters are "buyers" whose opinions about been shilled will change when when they sell their collections.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

Rick did do something: "hi, best thing it to contact ebay trust and safety and let them determine if anything happened
thanks
rick"

And I bet he was grinning ear to ear as he typed the above.

[sportscardtheory]

So you walk into Walmart looking for diapers. You normally spend $20, so that's what you intend to spend. You pay the $20 and on your way out the door you see that they are on sale for $15. Turns out the cashier knew it because it was the #1 selling item of the day and they cashed them out a hundred times. They just didn't tell you because they didn't like your face and wanted their employer to get that extra $5.

Who would be okay with this based on the fact that their intent was to pay $20.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

So you walk into Walmart looking for diapers. You normally spend $20, so that's what you intend to spend. You pay the $20 and on your way out the door you see that they are on sale for $15. Turns out the cashier knew it because it was the #1 selling item of the day and they cashed them out a hundred times. They just didn't tell you because they didn't like your face and wanted their employer to get that extra $5.

Who would be okay with this based on the fact that their intent was to pay $20.

the problem with this analogy is the schilling is really a reserve....Walmart never was gong to sell at 15..ony 20...it was bad that they made you go to to the store..but they would not ever be able to sell it at 15...only 20....

instead of just saying there is a 'reserve' they are just shilling..to me shilling and the reserve are the same thing.....except shilling in major auctions costs more cause if they shiller 'wins' they could pay a 20% fee on their own item...

[PM770]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

I agree with this 100%

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I suspect this may get interesting.

I need to make some popcorn

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

I do buy what I want for my collection, at the price I wish to pay. Whether that be from a shilling seller or not

Then you are part of the problem because you are showing your support for the fraud and the price you wish to pay is based on prior shilled prices. For full disclosure I recently won a card I had to have from a known shiller, but I do not feel good about it.

[packs]

Just FYI a max bid is the maximum amount you're willing to pay. A winning bid is the highest bid placed.

So if you're being shilled, you are not buying a card at a price you're willing to pay. You're buying the card at a price the seller is willing to sell it for.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by phabphour20

He has virtually no way to police it, even if he wanted to.

-Brian

He could make a half-hearted effort and ban a few of his biggest offenders.

[phabphour20]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

He could make a half-hearted effort and ban a few of his biggest offenders.

Now now, we all know this wouldn't be in his best interest...

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

Then you are part of the problem because you are showing your support for the fraud and the price you wish to pay is based on prior shilled prices. For full disclosure I recently won a card I had to have from a known shiller, but I do not feel good about it.

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

Indeed you are part of the problem. Perhaps slow down the purchases from sellers who are known to support support shilling?

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

Indeed you are part of the problem. Perhaps slow down the purchases from sellers who are known to support support shilling?

Sorry, but if I see a pc card that I have been searching high and low for, I am damn sure buying it. Look at me as a consumer willingly being taken advantage of and not a problem.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

Sorry, but if I see a pc card that I have been searching high and low for, I am damn sure buying it. Look at me as a consumer willingly being taken advantage of and not a problem.

The above thinking is why shilling works. Our friend, thenextlevel, is one of many who think this way and it's best that we all understand it. Doesn't mean to stop trying to stop illegal behavior, but at least it helps us understand why it is so effective. 'thenextlevel' won't go to jail for bidding in a shilled auction, and that's really the only thing that would stop him from supporting this illegal activity.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

Not buying cards from people known to be breaking the law does not mean "I should just stop buying cards now"

And now, I am done with this conversation. I enjoy this type of thread much more when I can just sit back and be entertained. My mistake for getting involved at all.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% BP they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.

Right, of course, but the hammer price is not what you see on VCP. No one asks if the ebay sales price includes BP. I am making comparisons using total cost of a card and your net return.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me, the problem of card doctoring, and increasingly, the problem of fake slabs and flips, are much more problematic than shill bidding. But the feds don't seem to see it that way, nor do most collectors.

[hangman62]

I think nobody on this site should bid on ANY Probstein lots anymore....stay away !

I will monitor his auctions and bid accordingly. Just to make sure everything is on the up and up

[glynparson]

Peter said. With doctoring you may get something worth 1-10% of what you paid or in the case of a fake flip 0%. It is rare to get shilled these types of percentages from what is pointed out in these threads. They both suck and should not be tolerated but Peter's examples of fraud screw you much worse than a shill bid

[nolemmings]

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

I won’t take it personally Leon. I’m not saying I’m in favor of shilling–just that I’m not going to get all worked up over it as relates to me and my hobby. If that makes me an idiot, well then there you have it.

You say you understand the whole hidden reserve concept and yet there is apparently something wrong if I just factor that into my decision-making process. Why? If I am willing to pay $100 for a card that has reserve of $100, an opening bid of $100 or a BIN of $100 because that’s what I would be willing to pay to own that card, why should I get all butt-hurt if it gets shilled to $100? The seller could have offered it under any of those platforms and I would be happy to add it to my collection for that same price, yet because I “could have had it for less” when he fails to use those mechanisms and instead employs shilling I should feel cheated and/or like an idiot? If you say so but forgive me if I just go on enjoying my card. I guess shilling allowed him to skirt a $2 Ebay reserve price fee, but I hardly believe that’s what is bothering people here.

I’ve been away from this thread too long today to address all of the points raised, so let me just say to each his own. As for Probstein, I have won several cards from his ebay auctions over the years for well less than I was willing to pay (I know, you’ll just say how much cheaper it could have gone it weren’t for the shillers). So go ahead and boycott his auctions if that makes you feel better– I have no problem with that. But at what point does the sanctimony stop?

Suppose he’s auctioning a card that should go for $100 based on prior sales, and a half dozen of you here would love to have it at that price but refuse to bid on his auctions. I win it for $60 and post it on the b/s/t for $100. Is the card now “clean” to buy? This way you're not giving the satisfaction of having the shiller or his auctioneer getting a dime of your hard-earned money, but how about giving that money to someone who knowingly turned a blind eye to the shiller?. And if not me do you buy it from the guy I sell to if he knows of my skullduggery? Dammit, thus is such a pervasive, drag-down-the-hobby, illegal, low-life activity that shouldn't someone be monitoring who is selling what and figuring out just what they know and when they learned it?

[sbfinley]

So most people here would check the bidding history of 2,000 daily auctions 5 times a week for impropriety if you owned a major eBay consignment company? No, you wouldn't because you wouldn't have enough time in the day. So you'd pay two (you would need at least two) full time employees to do nothing but check bidding history when in reality many eBayers have multiple accounts, legitimate bidders retract occasionally (blame eBay for allowing it), and new or occasional buyers may have an exceptionally high bid history percentage with you? Now, you've burned $70k in overhead and salary to discover shillers so everyone uncomfortable with the idea of simply bidding what they value the item to be worth to them can now comfortably umm... bid what they value the item to worth to them. That would be an amazing stand to please those prospective customers who would have else boycotted your company on the basis of principle although then you also need to become the CEO of eBay to change the implemented practice of anonymous bidding which allows such shilling chicanery to flourish because those who boycott your company on principle must certainly also boycott eBay for the exact same reasons. Kudos.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I won’t take it personally Leon. I’m not saying I’m in favor of shilling–just that I’m not going to get all worked up over it as relates to me and my hobby. If that makes me an idiot, well then there you have it.

You say you understand the whole hidden reserve concept and yet there is apparently something wrong if I just factor that into my decision-making process. Why? If I am willing to pay $100 for a card that has reserve of $100, an opening bid of $100 or a BIN of $100 because that’s what I would be willing to pay to own that card, why should I get all butt-hurt if it gets shilled to $100? The seller could have offered it under any of those platforms and I would be happy to add it to my collection for that same price, yet because I “could have had it for less” when he fails to use those mechanisms and instead employs shilling I should feel cheated and/or like an idiot? If you say so but forgive me if I just go on enjoying my card. I guess shilling allowed him to skirt a $2 Ebay reserve price fee, but I hardly believe that’s what is bothering people here.

I’ve been away from this thread too long today to address all of the points raised, so let me just say to each his own. As for Probstein, I have won several cards from his ebay auctions over the years for well less than I was willing to pay (I know, you’ll just say how much cheaper it could have gone it weren’t for the shillers). So go ahead and boycott his auctions if that makes you feel better– I have no problem with that. But at what point does the sanctimony stop?

Suppose he’s auctioning a card that should go for $100 based on prior sales, and a half dozen of you here would love to have it at that price but refuse to bid on his auctions. I win it for $60 and post it on the b/s/t for $100. Is the card now “clean” to buy? This way you're not giving the satisfaction of having the shiller or his auctioneer getting a dime of your hard-earned money, but how about giving that money to someone who knowingly turned a blind eye to the shiller?. And if not me do you buy it from the guy I sell to if he knows of my skullduggery? Dammit, thus is such a pervasive, drag-down-the-hobby, illegal, low-life activity that shouldn't someone be monitoring who is selling what and figuring out just what they know and when they learned it?

I specifically said I felt it was an idiotic sentiment. I think you are very intelligent and always enjoy our conversations. You are far from what I think an idiot is. And who knows, maybe my thoughts are idiotic?

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by glchen

Right, of course, but the hammer price is not what you see on VCP. No one asks if the ebay sales price includes BP. I am making comparisons using total cost of a card and your net return.

I don't know what VCP is. I was commenting on standard auctions as there is no buyers commission on ebay. The seller absorbs all the costs.

Aside - You can 'teach' ethics, the difference between right and wrong. You cannot teach morals, doing what is right versus what is wrong. That is why all law students must pass an ethics class, but not a morals class.

I generally only bid within the last 15 seconds of an auctions end on items I want at at the maximum price I am willing to pay. The price I am willing to pay is always lower than my perceived value of all items that I will resell. On the items I collect I may bid as a collector, but still price it in a similar way. I don't believe I have seen shilling on the auctions I bid on.