Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[phabphour20]

Always fun reading these conversations. I think the reason why so many of Rick's auctions are shilled is the same reason why Rick has so many darn auctions... his rates are the best around. If I'm selling a card over $1k, I will flat out get more money for it (after all fees) if Rick sells it for me. So a lot of people will send him stuff to sell.

Then, to degenerates in our hobby, and they are legion, the third party seller allows you the option to shill your own auctions. Rick really cannot control this. How is he to know that I sent the card and then had my wife bid on the auctions? It is impossible. Same goes for eBay monitoring this. So because he has good rates and gets top prices (partially from consignor's shilling), he gets lots of inventory to sell and attracts degenerate sellers looking for a few extra bucks.

I am IN NO WAY defending shilling. It is despicable and a stain on this hobby. But I really don't think you can fault Rick for it. He has virtually no way to police it, even if he wanted to.

-Brian Ronde@u

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by phabphour20

Rick really cannot control this. How is he to know that I sent the card and then had my wife bid on the auctions? It is impossible. Same goes for eBay monitoring this.

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

[phabphour20]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

Definitely a fair point.

[drcy]

My answer is more straight foreword and simple: Shilling is illegal, and well known hobby executives are in or soon will be in prison in part for the practice.

To be candid, it blows my mind a dealer would post on a public chat board that he thinks an illegal practice that involves deceiving customers out of their money is okay and justifies the practice. I mean, irrelevant to what are your personal thoughts on the ethics of the practice (and I understand there are honest differences of opinions and viewpoints on the practice), how stupid can one be? It's like a tax accounting posting on a board that an accounting fudging income numbers if fine with him, or a new restaurant owner posting on the local foodie board that he doesn't understand what's wrong with a cook spitting on the raw pizza because if because its cooked at 500 degrees. "Explain this to me: You're using social media to try and convince people to come and eat at your restaurant?"

For me, I think shilling is unethical and it's illegal-- a double whammy for me. I also know that an auction house or dealer does one deceptive practice, more than likely does more than one. You may not know what are the other unethical practices (alterations? deception in the sales descriptions?), but if you identify a seller as using a unethical (or worse) practice, you have identified an ethical seller. If that's not enough to convince a collector to bid elsewhere, there's nothing else I can do. But don't cry to me Argentina if a seller you know breaks the law by shilling also turns out to have sold you an altered item or overembellished the description, because I'll say "And you're somehow shocked that an unethical seller would act unethically?"

I point out that well known hobby executives in the news were prosecuted for shilling AND not disclosing at sale that items were altered and that independent scientific evidence pointed to certain items not being authentic.

My opinion is that the people who boast on a chat board that they, as bidders, have control over shilling going on and it doesn't effect or bother them because they do their homework or bid only what they're willing to bid or whatever, most likely don't have a clue. To me at least, such posts show ignorance and my guess is most of those posters are "buyers" whose opinions about been shilled will change when when they sell their collections.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

Rick did do something: "hi, best thing it to contact ebay trust and safety and let them determine if anything happened
thanks
rick"

And I bet he was grinning ear to ear as he typed the above.

[sportscardtheory]

So you walk into Walmart looking for diapers. You normally spend $20, so that's what you intend to spend. You pay the $20 and on your way out the door you see that they are on sale for $15. Turns out the cashier knew it because it was the #1 selling item of the day and they cashed them out a hundred times. They just didn't tell you because they didn't like your face and wanted their employer to get that extra $5.

Who would be okay with this based on the fact that their intent was to pay $20.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

So you walk into Walmart looking for diapers. You normally spend $20, so that's what you intend to spend. You pay the $20 and on your way out the door you see that they are on sale for $15. Turns out the cashier knew it because it was the #1 selling item of the day and they cashed them out a hundred times. They just didn't tell you because they didn't like your face and wanted their employer to get that extra $5.

Who would be okay with this based on the fact that their intent was to pay $20.

the problem with this analogy is the schilling is really a reserve....Walmart never was gong to sell at 15..ony 20...it was bad that they made you go to to the store..but they would not ever be able to sell it at 15...only 20....

instead of just saying there is a 'reserve' they are just shilling..to me shilling and the reserve are the same thing.....except shilling in major auctions costs more cause if they shiller 'wins' they could pay a 20% fee on their own item...

[PM770]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

I agree with this 100%