Problems with two championship rings in upcoming Heritage Auction

[bobfreedman]

So what it all boiled down to Michael, is that you didn't like the way HA went about their own business and how they decided to do their jobs? They did not do things fast enough for you is what all boils down to.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

So what it all boiled down to Michael, is that you didn't like the way HA went about their own business and how they decided to do their jobs? They did not do things fast enough for you is what all boils down to.

I think what it boils down to is that HA was going to sell rings that belonged to a player that didn't exist. The failure to do that research before accepting the consignment is asinine to me.

Pretty simple really.

[sports-rings]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

So what it all boiled down to Michael, is that you didn't like the way HA went about their own business and how they decided to do their jobs? They did not do things fast enough for you is what all boils down to.

Bob are you just stirring the pot and twisting things to conform what you want to conclude?

It boils down to the consigner tried to get one over on the auction house and the collecting community.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by sports-rings

Bob are you just stirring the pot and twisting things to conform what you want to conclude?

It boils down to the consigner tried to get one over on the auction house and the collecting community.

And to think that this is such an honorable business.

[ramram]

Is it possible that an auction house might want to drag their feet on an investigation until after the auction concludes and only then clean up the mess with the winning bidder? Then it's not out there, before the auction concludes, for the masses to see? Just a thought.

Rob M.

[sports-rings]

Is it possible that an auction house might want to drag their feet on an investigation until after the auction concludes and only then clean up the mess with the winning bidder? Then it's not out there, before the auction concludes, for the masses to see? Just a thought.

If the winning bidder had a strict budget and was unable to bid on other items later in the auction or while attending the National after thinking he won an item. Should he be upset?

Would he be wrong to say "why didn't you guys tell me ahead of time there was an issue???"

And as far as proclaiming that Heritage did not follow my timetable - what would happen if I never heard back from Heritage and they never changed the auction? When is a good time to alert the community?

Five minutes before the live bidding starts on net54 so no one will see it?

An hour after the auction?

A day?

A week?

Bob, no offense but you have lost your objectivity on this matter. I realize I see things different than perhaps your clients do but your opinion seems to be in the minority here.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by ramram

Is it possible that an auction house might want to drag their feet on an investigation until after the auction concludes and only then clean up the mess with the winning bidder? Then it's not out there, before the auction concludes, for the masses to see? Just a thought.

Rob M.

That's a very unethical approach to handling this type of situation.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by ramram

Is it possible that an auction house might want to drag their feet on an investigation until after the auction concludes and only then clean up the mess with the winning bidder? Then it's not out there, before the auction concludes, for the masses to see? Just a thought.

Rob M.

That would be a very poor decision on the part of any auction house. The resulting bad PR from having knowingly "sold" a bad item (even if it never actually changed hands) would be far worse than any blowback from pulling a bad item from the auction. They might conduct their investigation and then pull the item without giving a reason, but to knowingly sell a bad item to someone with the intention of clearing up the matter with them behind closed doors after the auction is over is a lose lose proposition. They would still wind up getting bad PR, would not get commission from the sale of the bad item, and would lose out on whatever other bids the "winning bidder" would have placed in the auction had they not thought their funds tied up with the bad item.

[shelly]

It does seem tha HA has done this before. Wait to the last minute to remove and item. I do not think that it takes a month to get a hold of a consigner of such high valued rings. Same with the watch. It does start to get old.
I also see that an item that is truely suspected to be a forgery is consigned by one of the big shots at HA. I really think that is convlict of interest. Keeping an item in because your own guy is selling it.
Last thing. When it came to the rings even a person who has never dealt with rings could see that they where altered. It really would have made them look good if they just taken them down when this all started.

[earlywynnfan]

I think this would have been a great time to let the rings sell, keeping the facts hidden. (Obviously, the winning bidder would be notified immediately!) $60K worth of fraud is noteworthy. After the sale, trace the rings back to the consignor with the threat of jail time, and have him give up where he got them. Trace them all the way back to the source. Somehow we need to find out where all this garbage is coming from, and try to put and end to it. It appears the Cooperstown Forger is off pursuing journalistic activities, but many have stepped up to take his place.

Ken

PS: I, for one, am glad this whole thing was brought out publicly.

PPS: Ken Goldin's name has been brought into this thread. It seems Goldin will pull an auction at first hint of trouble, even if it means he's pulling what turns out to be a real item. Based on his hammer totals, being proactive does not hamper the bottom line!

[sports-rings]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

So what it all boiled down to Michael, is that you didn't like the way HA went about their own business and how they decided to do their jobs? They did not do things fast enough for you is what all boils down to.

Bob, everyone on here has been quite supportive except you. The more I think about your reply above the more I boil.

Bob, when you proclaimed above what it boils down to, you got it wrong.

Here's what your response boils down to: No software product is perfect. Even your software has its issues.

My feeling is you are siding with the auction house view solely because you don't have the guts or objectivity to look at this matter from the collector's point of view.

Which is it?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by sports-rings

Bob, everyone on here has been quite supportive except you. The more I think about your reply above the more I boil.

Bob, when you proclaimed above what it boils down to, you got it wrong.

Here's what your response boils down to: No software product is perfect. Even your software has its issues.

My feeling is you are siding with the auction house view solely because you don't have the guts or objectivity to look at this matter from the collector's point of view.

Which is it?

Michael -
Don't let the bad guys get you down. Shelley, Chris and myself have fought through so much bullshit from guys who are obviously bad guys. Trying to nail the Florida ring has caused us nothing but grief so far but we are still hoping our efforts will be worthwhile.

[sports-rings]

Thanks Richard,

and glad to hear that you are feeling better!

[shelly]

Bob, they did a piss poor job. This could have been done in a few days not weeks.
There is no two sides to this arguement.

[bobfreedman]

Michael, your dead wrong - again, re-read my initial thread where I say you did a great job. My only point in all of this is that you were too impatient and you wanted HA to move at your speed and when they did not you acted like a spoiled kid and kicked and screamed. In fact, when no one replied to your initial thread, you posted again asking if anyone cares?

I am not sure what your comment about software has anything to with this thread but if you want to jab at it go ahead.

And there ARE two sides to every argument. HA did what they were supposed to do and that is to proceed at a pace that they deemed proper and not yours nor anyone else's. You say I don't have the guts to agree with you because of my lack of objectivity is another rat hole that you want people to chase. I never said I agreed with HA all I said is that you should be patient and stop crying that the sky is falling because HA did not act in a timely manner that you deemed proper. You were impatient who screamed louder when you did not get your way.

[sports-rings]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

My only point in all of this is that you were too impatient and you wanted HA to move at your speed and when they did not you acted like a spoiled kid and kicked and screamed. In fact, when no one replied to your initial thread, you posted again asking if anyone cares?

And there ARE two sides to every argument. HA did what they were supposed to do and that is to proceed at a pace that they deemed proper and not yours nor anyone else's..... I never said I agreed with HA all I said is that you should be patient and stop crying that the sky is falling because HA did not act in a timely manner that you deemed proper. You were impatient who screamed louder when you did not get your way.

Bob - when do you think it's acceptable to alert the collecting community? A day before the auction goes live?

Or an hour before?

How about moments after the auction?

or a day or week after the auction?

which is it?

You would have a much stronger argument, and I would agree with you if I called out an auction that had a piece that was challenging to authenticate.

Bob, how hard was this piece to verify? This is the equivalent of a Babe Ruth autograph being auctioned that did not look anything like a Babe Ruth signature.

So I can be a better participator in the collecting community, please answer my question about proper timing - this is the second time I have posted this question to you.