The "auction" (for lack of a better word) is over. Look at what happened.

[MattyC]

If I found it bothersome that any price paid may be artificially inflated (due to a shilled auction in the recent or distant past), to the point where I couldn't get past it, then I would just stop buying cards. We waste hundreds if not thousands on bar tabs, hands of blackjack, bottles of wine at a dinner, and so much other stuff that paying a potentially inflated price on a card to the tune of a few hundo because of a shilled auction in the past just doesn't make my blood boil or stomach turn. If the card is beautiful, smokes other ugly examples, I want it, and can pay a price I can afford, I'm making it happen. Nice and simple. This is just one dude's view, riffing with others, not trying to proselytize.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by MattyC

If I found it bothersome that any price paid may be artificially inflated (due to a shilled auction in the recent or distant past), to the point where I couldn't get past it, then I would just stop buying cards. We waste hundreds if not thousands on bar tabs, hands of blackjack, bottles of wine at a dinner, and so much other stuff that paying a potentially inflated price on a card to the tune of a few hundo because of a shilled auction in the past just doesn't make my blood boil or stomach turn. If the card is beautiful, smokes other ugly examples, I want it, and can pay a price I can afford, I'm making it happen. Nice and simple. This is just one dude's view, riffing with others, not trying to proselytize.

And that's exactly what criminals like Bill Mastro think when they're engaging in their fraud: 'they want the card anyway, why is shilling it up a problem?' Hell, Bill still thinks that and he's cooperating with the Feds against other criminals in our hobby.

[Runscott]

I can't believe what I read in these threads about shilling.

Seriously - do you take the attitude that because you personally can't stop all crime, that crime is okay and we should ignore it, as long as it doesn't affect us personally?

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I can't believe what I read in these threads about shilling.

Seriously - do you take the attitude that because you personally can't stop all crime, that crime is okay and we should ignore it, as long as it doesn't affect us personally?

I hope nobody believes that!
shilling is wrong and a crime

[glchen]

Originally Posted by chernieto

I hope nobody believes that!
shilling is wrong and a crime

I think most people, myself include, believe that shilling is wrong, and is a crime. However, some people are arguing that they will try to find those auctions that they don't believe are shilled and try to bid on those. However, Peter and others, are advocating the higher road, in that they believe that since PWCC may be encouraging shilling or at the minimum not doing anything about it, they should be boycotted for all of their listings even the ones that don't seem to be shilled. I mean if you take this further, you shouldn't buy or sell on ebay at all since ebay isn't doing diddly either, and making it even harder to determine shilling these days by making the ebay usernames who win or bid on auctions even more anonymous than before.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by glchen

I mean if you take this further, you shouldn't buy or sell on ebay at all since ebay isn't doing diddly either, and making it even harder to determine shilling these days by making the ebay usernames who win or bid on auctions even more anonymous than before.

There is crime on our planet; therefore, I am leaving.

[jhs5120]

The only way to stop shilling is to pay what you believe a card is worth.

[drcy]

I always think "How big of you to feel it's okay that others are shilled out of money."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property being stolen, you can bet they'd be threatening lawsuit or contacting the police.

And then there are the inevitable posters who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet to achieve the same effect? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I've said, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

My usual guess when a collector says he doesn't mind being shilled because he's knowledgeable about values is he isn't knowledgeable about values. My usual guess is his 'knowledge' is the product of following shilled auctions.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by drcy

I always think "How big of you to think it's okay that others are being shilled."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property, they'd be singing a different tune.

And then there are the resident idiots who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet for fun? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who you burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I say, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

I think there are two distinct issues in this conversation that need to be parsed. There is "participating in a shilled auction," and then there is the notion that "many or all prices are inflated due to shilling." The former is relatively easier to combat on the individual level, by outing shilled auctions, abstaining from them, learning how to spot them and passing that knowledge onto other individuals. But the latter notion is more problematic.

I don't see many here saying they are okay with others getting robbed, or okay with getting robbed themselves. For me at least, I'm talking specifically about the discrete notion of prices being inflated due to past shilling-- and thus if one does not want to be a party to that, it can paralyze a collector.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by drcy

I always think "How big of you to feel it's okay that others are shilled out of money."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property being stolen, you can bet they'd be threatening lawsuit or contacting the police.

And then there are the inevitable posters who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet to achieve the same effect? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I've said, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

My usual guess when a collector says he doesn't mind being shilled because he's knowledgeable about values is he isn't knowledgeable about values. My usual guess is his 'knowledge' is the product of following shilled auctions.

Best post ever. The Rockefeller reference caused me to do a spit-take.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by drcy

I always think "How big of you to feel it's okay that others are shilled out of money."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property being stolen, you can bet they'd be threatening lawsuit or contacting the police.

And then there are the inevitable posters who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet to achieve the same effect? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I've said, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

My usual guess when a collector says he doesn't mind being shilled because he's knowledgeable about values is he isn't knowledgeable about values. My usual guess is his 'knowledge' is the product of following shilled auctions.

totally agree...I will never understand those on this board who see shilling as a necessary component of buying vintage baseball cards...and are not bothered by it?

it's like paying the mafia off to merely exist?

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And that's exactly what criminals like Bill Mastro think when they're engaging in their fraud: 'they want the card anyway, why is shilling it up a problem?' Hell, Bill still thinks that and he's cooperating with the Feds against other criminals in our hobby.

So is the answer, by that logic, to stop collecting? I agree the criminals are out there, that we have to be able to identify and steer around shilled auctions, but one can't let awareness of the fraud paralyze them from enjoyment, or from obtaining the items they love. There has to be a balance within the collector.

No Scott, I'm not saying that at all. But I also don't give up my current life to be a policeman or vigilante by night. If you want to stop collecting because there are shillers out there, go for it. Willingness to bid in unshilled auctions does not mean someone condones shilling. Willingness to buy cards when prices in general may be inflated here and there due to past shilling is also not condoning shilling. If I see it I will report it. If I see it I will abstain. If I have a friend pursuing a card I see is being shilled, I will put him onto it. But I won't let the existence of shilling stop me from collecting, or dominate my mind to the point where I spend more time talking about shilling on a website than I do enjoying cards. It's about balance and enjoyment, and not crossing the line from cautious, educated collector into paralyzed collector/crusader.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MattyC

So is the answer, by that logic, to stop collecting? I agree the criminals are out there, that we have to be able to identify and steer around shilled auctions, but one can't let awareness of the fraud paralyze them from enjoyment, of from obtaining the items they love. There has to be a balance within the collector.

Where did you come up with such logic? From 'avoid known cheats' to 'avoid everyone'? The balance you speak of is achieved by avoiding dishonest sellers. Many of us do so, and our collections are not bad.

I have not studied PWCC or Probstein's auctions and bidding history, and I have ignored most of the posts that do so, but it's hard to ignore the responses in these discussions that advocate complacency when shilling is discovered.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Where did you come up with such logic? From 'avoid known cheats' to 'avoid everyone'? The balance you speak of is achieved by avoiding dishonest sellers. Many of us do so, and our collections are not bad.

I have not studied PWCC or Probstein's auctions and bidding history, and I have ignored most of the posts that do so, but it's hard to ignore the responses in these discussions that advocate complacency when shilling is discovered.

Scott, that logic is just an attempt to address the notion that all or many prices are inflated because of past shilling. And therefore, if one doesn't want to be a victim of shilling, and yet many prices even in unshilled auctions are in effect "retroactively shilled," if you will, then it becomes a slippery slope.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Scott, that logic is just an attempt to address the notion that all or many prices are inflated because of past shilling. And therefore, if one doesn't want to be a victim of shilling, and yet many prices even in unshilled auctions are in effect "retroactively shilled," if you will, then it becomes a slippery slope.

I don't agree that shilling is driving up prices in all auctions, and I have avoided such discussions. But if that could be proven to be true, it would be ludicrous to avoid honest sellers because their prices have benefited from others who cheat. It would also be ludicrous to say that it's okay to bid on items sold by those who cheat, since the honest sellers benefit as well. I can't buy any such logic.

If you are an ebay customer you have the power to cast a vote against cheating by not bidding on items sold by such sellers, and also by voicing your opinion in public forums. Eventually it could change things - it worked with some of the large auction houses and I see no reason why ebay shouldn't also eventually be held accountable for tolerating illegal activities.

If you have a problem avoiding stuff you really want, that's being sold by questionable sellers, then simply don't ever view their auctions. I do this with several major auction houses, and with several ebay sellers - I simply use the advanced search setting to remove them, and they could have the coolest stuff in the world and I would never know it. I do the same with a few AH's by throwing their catalogs in the recycle bin without opening.

[chernieto]

[QUOTE=Runscott;1272826]
If you are an ebay customer you have the power to cast a vote against cheating by not bidding on items sold by such sellers, and also by voicing your opinion in public forums.

just be careful if you choose to voice your opinion on a public forum you may be attacked for doing so

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by MattyC

So is the answer, by that logic, to stop collecting? I agree the criminals are out there, that we have to be able to identify and steer around shilled auctions, but one can't let awareness of the fraud paralyze them from enjoyment, or from obtaining the items they love. There has to be a balance within the collector.

No Scott, I'm not saying that at all. But I also don't give up my current life to be a policeman or vigilante by night. If you want to stop collecting because there are shillers out there, go for it. Willingness to bid in unshilled auctions does not mean someone condones shilling. Willingness to buy cards when prices in general may be inflated here and there due to past shilling is also not condoning shilling. If I see it I will report it. If I see it I will abstain. If I have a friend pursuing a card I see is being shilled, I will put him onto it. But I won't let the existence of shilling stop me from collecting, or dominate my mind to the point where I spend more time talking about shilling on a website than I do enjoying cards. It's about balance and enjoyment, and not crossing the line from cautious, educated collector into paralyzed collector/crusader.

Who said anyone should stop collecting because of the fraud? I'd just like to see the end of the covering up for the crooks as well as those who claim that fraud isn't a big deal and "just put in a bid you're comfortable with and if you're shilled you'll still be ok." That would be a nice start. Because if we can't even describe fraud for what it is then we obviously have a problem of stupidity in the hobby which at least rivals that of the fraud.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And that's exactly what criminals like Bill Mastro think when they're engaging in their fraud: 'they want the card anyway, why is shilling it up a problem?' Hell, Bill still thinks that and he's cooperating with the Feds against other criminals in our hobby.

Jeff- I went back and re-read a statement I made in this thread and want to amend it here. I said to "just put a bid/snipe in and be done with it." I think that is still the case but it doesn't mean I WANT to pay that much if I don't need to, in a legal auction setting. I am not condoning, what looks to be, the fraud that we see going on with the bidding patterns and id's. I am not OK with getting ripped off. If I inadvertently stated otherwise then that was a mistake. If we see fraud going on then it is for the good of the hobby to expose it. Please keep doing what you are doing, but be nice .

[Sean1125]

[drcy]

I don't think there are easy answers, especially when applying to the real world. I think there can be compromise and things are rarely black and white and the real world situations can be complex. If all pants makers are unethical, I don't expect you to walk around without pants. Realize I grew up in the Northern Midwest and it can get chilly here in Seattle too. I don't rank every misdemeanor as a felony, nor do I expect people to be Saints (Though, to be candid, I expect people to be good people. Sorry, but I don't give excuses for stealing money from honest people or lying in auction descriptions. Use your rationalizations on someone else).

But, while I think one's ethics can sometimes justifiably be compromised on occasion ("All food makers are unethical in some way, but I actually have to eat and already have a full time job and can't start my own farm. I have to make some sort of practical compromise"), if all it takes to toss out one's ethics is to get a kid's baseball card, that's pretty sad. If there is a is god as commonly described, I would imagine he doesn't forgive your sins because they were done in the pursuit of gathering baseball cards.

And I'm not telling you what your ethics should be. I'm not saying I have the universal definition and here is what the are. But, for a starting point, you should know what are your ethical beliefs. And you know what is right and wrong by your definitions and you should be aware when you are breaking your rules in the of baseball cards. You know when you are really just rationalizing, if to yourself more even than to others. You know when you are manipulating definitions to meet your card collecting aims.

You don't have to argue to me your points. You don't have to convince me of anything. You don't have to convince me that this or that offense is really just an ethical parking ticket not a felony, and you more than make up for it by being good to your family and giving to charity. But you should have the discussion with yourself. And, in the end, if you are breaking your personal ethical rules but honestly believe it's justifiable in the pursuit of baseball cards, that's the way it is. The discussion was with yourself, and my and others' opinions and belief systems are neither here nor there. We weren't even in the room to hear your points, much less offer opinions on them.

P.s. Don't call me holier than thou after I said my personal belief system was neither here nor there.

P.s.s. Or at least have the decency to say it behind my back and not to my face.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Steve yes you could by Socratic method push even the most ethical person to the point where he would have to admit that he is not being completely pure or consistent. But so what? That doesn't undercut the legitimacy of taking the obvious step of foregoing card purchases from known or strongly suspected fraudsters. It's like Robert Bork allegedly said -- just because there is a slippery slope doesn't mean you have to ski it to the bottom.

[nolemmings]

or someone like Todd who joins a fray just to pile-on because of past disagreements

I would ask you what the hell you are talking about, but that might imply I care.

[Runscott]

...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Steve yes you could by Socratic method push even the most ethical person to the point where he would have to admit that he is not being completely pure or consistent. But so what? That doesn't undercut the legitimacy of taking the obvious step of foregoing card purchases from known or strongly suspected fraudsters. It's like Robert Bork allegedly said -- just because there is a slippery slope doesn't mean you have to ski it to the bottom.

All true.

The comment I made that we started on was someone elses about having no contact at all with questionable sellers, and was more about where does one draw the line. Obviously someone known to shill or alter or both regularly should be avoided. Someone who essentially condones it by letting it slide maybe is a little less obvious. And Of course Ebay appears to condone if not encourage all sorts of misbehavior.

Which path is the one avoiding the slippery slope?
Certainly not buying from obvious scammers is reasonable.
Either avoiding or being careful with auctions from the big consignment places that don't look too closely at some bidders?
Abandoning Ebay entirely?

The last doesn't seem reasonable.


There's a lot of slippery slopes, it just seems odd to me at times that nearly all of us (Myself included) choose which to ski down based on how inconvenient it would be to avoid it.


As an aside, Does Bork ski? Since 1975, I've only ever walked off two slopes. Both times I was pretty certain that continuing would get me seriously hurt. But both times it was sort of embarrassing.

Times like this I really do wish I was better at writing.

Steve B

[drcy]

William F. Buckley once joked that he saw liberal Harvard economist John Kenneth Galbraith cross country skiing and Galbraith's skiing skills matched the competency of his economic theories.