The "auction" (for lack of a better word) is over. Look at what happened.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by chernieto

I hope nobody believes that!
shilling is wrong and a crime

I think most people, myself include, believe that shilling is wrong, and is a crime. However, some people are arguing that they will try to find those auctions that they don't believe are shilled and try to bid on those. However, Peter and others, are advocating the higher road, in that they believe that since PWCC may be encouraging shilling or at the minimum not doing anything about it, they should be boycotted for all of their listings even the ones that don't seem to be shilled. I mean if you take this further, you shouldn't buy or sell on ebay at all since ebay isn't doing diddly either, and making it even harder to determine shilling these days by making the ebay usernames who win or bid on auctions even more anonymous than before.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by glchen

I mean if you take this further, you shouldn't buy or sell on ebay at all since ebay isn't doing diddly either, and making it even harder to determine shilling these days by making the ebay usernames who win or bid on auctions even more anonymous than before.

There is crime on our planet; therefore, I am leaving.

[jhs5120]

The only way to stop shilling is to pay what you believe a card is worth.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

The only way to stop shilling is to pay what you believe a card is worth.

I've seen some idiotic things on this forum but this one might take the cake.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

The only way to stop shilling is to pay what you believe a card is worth.

LOL, and the only way to stop home invasions is to leave all your valuables out on the lawn

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

LOL, and the only way to stop home invasions is to leave all your valuables out on the lawn

That would be one heck of a strategy! In all seriousness, 99% of these crazy shilled up auctions are the result of some fool bidding against himself (the shiller). If people would simply set a snipe to what they feel the card is worth then most of these situations would be avoided and the shill bidder will just keep winning the card.

Case in point, this Johnson card is worth maybe $1,100. If everyone sticks to what the card is worth then the card will just go back to the consignor/shiller. The consigner will (presumably) pay his consignment fees and consign the card again, it doesn't sell again and the process repeats itself. It will keep repeating itself until the consignor eventually doesn't shill and accepts that the card is only worth $1,100. It's the crazy bidders who NEED this card that create such a rampant shilling problem.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

The consigner will (presumably) pay his consignment fees ....

This wouldn't happen if the consignor shills under a 0 feedback account and becomes nonpaying bidder. Then what probably would happen would be that PWCC would give the underbidder a 2nd chance offer or re-list for the consignor in the next auction. Since PWCC didn't know the consignor was nonpaying bidder, they wouldn't charge a consignment fee.

[drcy]

I always think "How big of you to feel it's okay that others are shilled out of money."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property being stolen, you can bet they'd be threatening lawsuit or contacting the police.

And then there are the inevitable posters who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet to achieve the same effect? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I've said, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

My usual guess when a collector says he doesn't mind being shilled because he's knowledgeable about values is he isn't knowledgeable about values. My usual guess is his 'knowledge' is the product of following shilled auctions.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by drcy

I always think "How big of you to think it's okay that others are being shilled."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property, they'd be singing a different tune.

And then there are the resident idiots who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet for fun? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who you burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I say, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

I think there are two distinct issues in this conversation that need to be parsed. There is "participating in a shilled auction," and then there is the notion that "many or all prices are inflated due to shilling." The former is relatively easier to combat on the individual level, by outing shilled auctions, abstaining from them, learning how to spot them and passing that knowledge onto other individuals. But the latter notion is more problematic.

I don't see many here saying they are okay with others getting robbed, or okay with getting robbed themselves. For me at least, I'm talking specifically about the discrete notion of prices being inflated due to past shilling-- and thus if one does not want to be a party to that, it can paralyze a collector.

[drcy]

I agree my post involved different issues. Assorted thoughts rather than linear theory.

But some people really do boast on this board that they don't mind being shilled.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by drcy

I always think "How big of you to feel it's okay that others are shilled out of money."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property being stolen, you can bet they'd be threatening lawsuit or contacting the police.

And then there are the inevitable posters who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet to achieve the same effect? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I've said, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

My usual guess when a collector says he doesn't mind being shilled because he's knowledgeable about values is he isn't knowledgeable about values. My usual guess is his 'knowledge' is the product of following shilled auctions.

Best post ever. The Rockefeller reference caused me to do a spit-take.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by drcy

I always think "How big of you to feel it's okay that others are shilled out of money."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property being stolen, you can bet they'd be threatening lawsuit or contacting the police.

And then there are the inevitable posters who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet to achieve the same effect? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I've said, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

My usual guess when a collector says he doesn't mind being shilled because he's knowledgeable about values is he isn't knowledgeable about values. My usual guess is his 'knowledge' is the product of following shilled auctions.

totally agree...I will never understand those on this board who see shilling as a necessary component of buying vintage baseball cards...and are not bothered by it?

it's like paying the mafia off to merely exist?

[chernieto]

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddes...g/02/art.crime

Shill? what Shill?

ebay? very interesting...