Bill Mastro denies widespread fraud in his auctions -- yesterday.

[Wite3]

Too bad the judge does not have an email address...he would get tons of emails from collectors.

Joshua

[calvindog]

Judge Ronald A. Guzman
219 South Dearborn Street
Chicago, Illinois 60604

The case name is U.S. v. Mastro, 1:12-cr-00567.

[botn]

If victims do not know who they are nor to what degree they were victimized, how much credibility would a letter have?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by botn

If victims do not know who they are nor to what degree they were victimized, how much credibility would a letter have?

You're kidding, right? The man threatened how many people in this hobby? Steadfastly denied shill bidding even while he was ripping off hundreds if not thousands of people? I think there is plenty of credible stuff to tell the judge about Bill Mastro.

[Iron Horse]

Will the actual fact in this case be public at some point?
So, we can all read as to exactly what went on in detail.

[botn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You're kidding, right? The man threatened how many people in this hobby? Steadfastly denied shill bidding even while he was ripping off hundreds if not thousands of people? I think there is plenty of credible stuff to tell the judge about Bill Mastro.

Actually Jeff, I am not kidding. Apparently you think the rest of us have seen the evidence that you some how got to see. How can anyone write a letter as a victim if they do not know they are a victim? Maybe you are simply suggesting everyone should do their civic duty by writing letters to judges who are about to sentence people who have been convicted of or admitted to committing felonies

Please tell me how Mastro bidders are supposed to know Bill threatened people and the details of those threats? All I know about Bill is that he ran an auction house, he was a collector, he has now admitted to trimming the T206 which is in a PSA 8 holder and has admitted to shill bidding.

Does Guzman really need to hear from outsiders to tell him to put the bad guys away?

[base_ball]

At this point, letters speaking to the man's character would be as good as letters regarding shill bidding. The idea is to move the judge closer to the five-year maximum sentence. To that end, I submit the following encounter I had with Mastro, long before the criminal enterprise formerly known as MastroNet existed. It was small potatoes, but captures the essence of a shyster. Originally posted on this forum in May 2007, in response to "Worst Collecting Experience":

---------
Early 90s…I buy a Babe Ruth signature watch via mail from a dealer in Rhode Island, not the common 40s character, but the rarer late 20s-early 30s art deco watch with Ruth’s facsimile autograph on the face. I showed the watch to my dad, an antique timepiece collector, who popped open the watch and said to me, “you just paid $500 (or $300?) for a dial.” What I bought was a watch face placed onto a movement too small for what may or not have been the original case so the movement had to be built out with a waxy substance so that it would fit into the case. I returned the watch and had my money returned, no questions asked.

Fast forward to a major Sotheby’s auction, the Copeland Collection, I believe, but certainly a sale with William Mastro consulting for the great New York house. There’s a Babe Ruth signature watch lot. It looks familiar. Very familiar. I go to the viewing. I get to meet the legendary Bill Mastro. I ask to see the inside of the watch. He says they can’t do that. I say it’s Sotheby’s and they have someone there who surely can open a watch. They open the watch and it is, of course, the very same watch I owned briefly: same scratch on the crystal, same waxy substance, same watch. I point out the problems to Mastro. He says, “So?” I tell him I owned the watch, bla, bla, bla…he says, “Impossible. It’s been part of the same collection for years.” Oh well, maybe someone had been mass-producing these things for years.

The watch sold for 900 bucks. I learned a very valuable lesson in expertise.

[calvindog]

Joe, good story.

Greg, it sounds like you don't have a problem with Bill so you might not be the correct person to write to the judge. Maybe you can write to him about JP Cohen?

In all seriousness, defendants send scores of so-called character letters to sentencing judges in an effort to convince the judge that the defendant is a better person than the crime he committed would indicate, that there is another side of the defendant. Rarely, however, do victims of the defendant write in and provide a human face to the ramifications of the crimes. I can tell you that such letters make a difference. I'm not suggesting for a second I want Mastro to get maximum jail time, I just want the sentencing judge to know the truth about what Mastro is which, at least yesterday, made clear he still refuses to accept responsibility for his crimes and continues to blame others for what he and only he did.

[bigtrain]

Adam's point is well taken. I don't know if I was a victim or not. Nevertheless,the damage done to the hobby as a whole is tremendous and the Judge should be made aware of that.
I know that Peter Nash would accuse Rob Lifson of kidnapping the Lindbergh baby if not for the fact that that happened decades before Rob was born. Nevertheless, as to his assertion on the Hauls of Shame website that Lifson knew the Wagner was trimmed when he sold it in 2000, I would like to know whether this can be proven or whether it is just another pot shot at REA that Nash likes to take at every opportunity.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by botn

Actually Jeff, I am not kidding. Apparently you think the rest of us have seen the evidence that you some how got to see. How can anyone write a letter as a victim if they do not know they are a victim? Maybe you are simply suggesting everyone should do their civic duty by writing letters to judges who are about to sentence people who have been convicted of or admitted to committing felonies

Please tell me how Mastro bidders are supposed to know Bill threatened people and the details of those threats? All I know about Bill is that he ran an auction house, he was a collector, he has now admitted to trimming the T206 which is in a PSA 8 holder and has admitted to shill bidding.

Does Guzman really need to hear from outsiders to tell him to put the bad guys away?

Now I wish I saved the email thread that I had with Bill!

I was Selling an SGC 60/5 E90-1 Ty Cobb. In the end... I decided not to sell it to him... at ALL, For any amount! (I decided not to sell it to him because he began to become frustrated & abusive during our email negotiations) He then delivered "A Most threating speech", that would of made you, have Jeff's Desire, to see Bill get what he deserves!

After about a year went by, I read that Good ole' Bill found religion to help save his neck! I knew from our email conversation's that he must of went through a "Quicking" in his conversion.

I eventually sold the card through REA and received a Fair price, $3,000 more than the Belligerent Bill swore It wasn't worth!

This is All I Know About Bill... And I don't Care if he Trimmed the "The Card"!

As Always...

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by botn

"in a PSA 8 holder"

In a holder by complicity or poorly done work???

[shelly]

I am sorry to repeat this over and over again. I was there when the card was graded. So was Bill Heitman. Bill Huges came out and admited at that time the card was trimmed. For Psa to bury there heads in the sand and say they had no idea is total BS.
What amazed me the most is that the card guys belived Mastro and not there own eys.

[autograf]

Yeah.....bid on hundreds of items over the years and don't doubt that SOMETHING happened. Just wondering how we know what particular item and how much the shilling was. Kind of difficult to write a nebulous letter assuming you were shilled. Doesn't sound good for the other plaintiffs given Mastro's statements. Assuming he will tell all to minimize his 2-1/2 years if possible. As for altered items, I remember a thread about a cabinet card that Jay Miller consigned that had had substantial work done on it that we discussed. Not sure it was disclosed till we discussed it.

Threatening is a far different offense than shill bidding. Not better or worse but a little more obvious than being bumped $100 on a $1000 card unnecessarily.......

[oldjudge]

Jeff--if we have a specific item in mind that we think could have been shilled, can we get a yea or nay from someone?

[drcy]

By design and intention, much shilling is covert, hidden. The victims are not supposed to know they are being shilled. An auction house or consignor never sends you an email notice that they are bidding against you on lot #256. Many bidders never know their win price was artificially inflated.

On a side note, my guess/opinion is that these days it's more likely a consignor (or associates) places a shill bid than an auction house. Even where there are suspiciously high prices, if an auction house denies they shilled, they may be telling the truth.

[autograf]

Agree completely on a consignor......I would love to see substantive proof of me being shilled. I need to look back through the items I'd won......

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Jeff--if we have a specific item in mind that we think could have been shilled, can we get a yea or nay from someone?

I agree Jay, I won many items from Mastro Auctions and never put in a Maximum bid. I won all the items I wanted without a maximum bid. Certainly this does not address any fake items or items not describe accurately. I see that there are some members on a witch hunt. This happens all the time with celebrities, sports stars etc. But, I know Bill Mastro has admitted some wrong doings in the court, the Wagner being the big one. I don't see shill bidding anywhere. This will certainly get some feedback. Let's see the proof of shilling, name the items.

Joe

[botn]

Jeff Lichtman is either in possession of or has seen the bidder records many times as he has alluded to it over and over. He has also said hundreds if not thousands of bidders were shilled. How do we get to see bidder records to see if we are victims?

[wheitman]

I wanted to clarify a couple of things I read here. I was not present when Bill Hughes took part in grading the trimmed Wagner for PSA. However, Bill Hughes came to my home both before and after he had graded the card. Shelly was present both times. Before the card was graded, I told Bill that the card had been trimmed and should not be graded. Later, after he informed me that the card had been graded, I asked Bill how a trimmed card could be graded. He told me that the measurements of the card were within the acceptable tolerances. I informed him that the skinnier T206s were all American Beauty backs. His response to me was "well, we had to grade it."

I was present when Shelly called McNall's office. He made the call from my home phone and I was the person who had bet him on whether he would call or not.

I've always wondered why no one has explored the McNall/Hall connection when it came to grading this card in the first place. Bruce McNall had made his "fortune" dealing in rare ancient coins and, of course, David Hall was a long time dealer in coins who founded PCGS for the grading of coins. Incidentally, Bill Hughes told me that his grandparents had acquired loads of coins in their pawn shop and had dealt with David Hall quite often, which is why and how Bill became connected to David Hall and his new company, PSA.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by wheitman

I wanted to clarify a couple of things I read here. I was not present when Bill Hughes took part in grading the trimmed Wagner for PSA. However, Bill Hughes came to my home both before and after he had graded the card. Shelly was present both times. Before the card was graded, I told Bill that the card had been trimmed and should not be graded. Later, after he informed me that the card had been graded, I asked Bill how a trimmed card could be graded. He told me that the measurements of the card were within the acceptable tolerances. I informed him that the skinnier T206s were all American Beauty backs. His response to me was "well, we had to grade it."

I was present when Shelly called McNall's office. He made the call from my home phone and I was the person who had bet him on whether he would call or not.

I've always wondered why no one has explored the McNall/Hall connection when it came to grading this card in the first place. Bruce McNall had made his "fortune" dealing in rare ancient coins and, of course, David Hall was a long time dealer in coins who founded PCGS for the grading of coins. Incidentally, Bill Hughes told me that his grandparents had acquired loads of coins in their pawn shop and had dealt with David Hall quite often, which is why and how Bill became connected to David Hall and his new company, PSA.

No disrespect, but who are you? And are you saying Shelly was with you and not present when the card was graded?

[wheitman]

My apologies. I am the Bill Heitman referred to in Shelly's post. I don't know where Shelly was at the time the card was graded, but I know he was at my home during the two conversations I mentioned with Bill Hughes.

Oh--I am also the author of "T206 The Monster" which is where everyone got the name "The Monster" for the T206 set. That was more than 33 years ago, a time when I was the only collector in America who collected T206 by the backs and series'.

Sorry I didn't introduce myself.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by wheitman

My apologies. I am the Bill Heitman referred to in Shelly's post. I don't know where Shelly was at the time the card was graded, but I know he was at my home during the two conversations I mentioned with Bill Hughes.

Oh--I am also the author of "T206 The Monster" which is where everyone got the name "The Monster" for the T206 set. That was more than 33 years ago, a time when I was the only collector in America who collected T206 by the backs and series'.

Sorry I didn't introduce myself.

thanks for posting here, but this part I don't think ted Z would agree with...

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

No disrespect, but who are you? And are you saying Shelly was with you and not present when the card was graded?

David really? Like a little mustard with your foot sandwich?

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

David really? Like a little mustard with your foot sandwich?

Huh?? Because I never heard of BH or his book? And why the mad face?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Huh?? Because I never heard of BH or his book? And why the mad face?

When you inhabit a board that is dominated by T206 conversation it's like not knowing the Mona Lisa was painted by DaVinci.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Huh?? Because I never heard of BH or his book? And why the mad face?

I am sure David is far from the only one, even in this community.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

No disrespect, but who are you? And are you saying Shelly was with you and not present when the card was graded?

At least you weren't responding to 'Archive'.

[Runscott]

Bill, it's good to see you posting, and that was an EXCELLENT one...with no editing!!!

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by Runscott

At least you weren't responding to 'Archive'.

Yeah Scott! "Archive" I hate that mofo! I wont even talk to him!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Yeah Scott! "Archive" I hate that mofo! I wont even talk to him!

Watch what you say in print - 'Archive' might decide to sue YOU.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Runscott

At least you weren't responding to 'Archive'.

Arch Ives was Burl's brother.

[Cardboard Junkie]

True story....I painted Burl Ives house in Santa Barb. Ca. in 1973, (there was no Vassar girl involved).

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by wheitman

I wanted to clarify a couple of things I read here. I was not present when Bill Hughes took part in grading the trimmed Wagner for PSA. However, Bill Hughes came to my home both before and after he had graded the card. Shelly was present both times. Before the card was graded, I told Bill that the card had been trimmed and should not be graded. Later, after he informed me that the card had been graded, I asked Bill how a trimmed card could be graded. He told me that the measurements of the card were within the acceptable tolerances. I informed him that the skinnier T206s were all American Beauty backs. His response to me was "well, we had to grade it."

I was present when Shelly called McNall's office. He made the call from my home phone and I was the person who had bet him on whether he would call or not.

I've always wondered why no one has explored the McNall/Hall connection when it came to grading this card in the first place. Bruce McNall had made his "fortune" dealing in rare ancient coins and, of course, David Hall was a long time dealer in coins who founded PCGS for the grading of coins. Incidentally, Bill Hughes told me that his grandparents had acquired loads of coins in their pawn shop and had dealt with David Hall quite often, which is why and how Bill became connected to David Hall and his new company, PSA.

Thanks for posting this and welcome aboard. If this is true, then I find PSA's actions extremely disturbing to say the least and the "rendering an opinion" defense seems very feeble at this point.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Thanks for posting this and welcome aboard. If this is true, then I find PSA's actions extremely disturbing to say the least and the "rendering an opinion" defense seems very feeble at this point.

I'm sure Doug Allen is dry cleaning his proffer suit in an effort to unload on PSA in order to save himself. Just a hunch.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I'm sure Doug Allen is dry cleaning his proffer suit in an effort to unload on PSA in order to save himself. Just a hunch.

Jeff,
I have a question for you. If Bill proffered as well as Doug, do we know they fully cooperated and did not make statements that can be proven false? If so, is this something that can be brought to the attention of the presiding AUSA to go back after him? In most of the comments I have read relating to Mastro, it really doesn't appear that he is very remorseful or cooperative with the process.

[wheitman]

Tried to email you, but it would not go through. Email me at wheitman@aol.com

Bill Heitman