Bill Mastro denies widespread fraud in his auctions -- yesterday.

[botn]

If victims do not know who they are nor to what degree they were victimized, how much credibility would a letter have?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by botn

If victims do not know who they are nor to what degree they were victimized, how much credibility would a letter have?

You're kidding, right? The man threatened how many people in this hobby? Steadfastly denied shill bidding even while he was ripping off hundreds if not thousands of people? I think there is plenty of credible stuff to tell the judge about Bill Mastro.

[Iron Horse]

Will the actual fact in this case be public at some point?
So, we can all read as to exactly what went on in detail.

[botn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You're kidding, right? The man threatened how many people in this hobby? Steadfastly denied shill bidding even while he was ripping off hundreds if not thousands of people? I think there is plenty of credible stuff to tell the judge about Bill Mastro.

Actually Jeff, I am not kidding. Apparently you think the rest of us have seen the evidence that you some how got to see. How can anyone write a letter as a victim if they do not know they are a victim? Maybe you are simply suggesting everyone should do their civic duty by writing letters to judges who are about to sentence people who have been convicted of or admitted to committing felonies

Please tell me how Mastro bidders are supposed to know Bill threatened people and the details of those threats? All I know about Bill is that he ran an auction house, he was a collector, he has now admitted to trimming the T206 which is in a PSA 8 holder and has admitted to shill bidding.

Does Guzman really need to hear from outsiders to tell him to put the bad guys away?

[base_ball]

At this point, letters speaking to the man's character would be as good as letters regarding shill bidding. The idea is to move the judge closer to the five-year maximum sentence. To that end, I submit the following encounter I had with Mastro, long before the criminal enterprise formerly known as MastroNet existed. It was small potatoes, but captures the essence of a shyster. Originally posted on this forum in May 2007, in response to "Worst Collecting Experience":

---------
Early 90s…I buy a Babe Ruth signature watch via mail from a dealer in Rhode Island, not the common 40s character, but the rarer late 20s-early 30s art deco watch with Ruth’s facsimile autograph on the face. I showed the watch to my dad, an antique timepiece collector, who popped open the watch and said to me, “you just paid $500 (or $300?) for a dial.” What I bought was a watch face placed onto a movement too small for what may or not have been the original case so the movement had to be built out with a waxy substance so that it would fit into the case. I returned the watch and had my money returned, no questions asked.

Fast forward to a major Sotheby’s auction, the Copeland Collection, I believe, but certainly a sale with William Mastro consulting for the great New York house. There’s a Babe Ruth signature watch lot. It looks familiar. Very familiar. I go to the viewing. I get to meet the legendary Bill Mastro. I ask to see the inside of the watch. He says they can’t do that. I say it’s Sotheby’s and they have someone there who surely can open a watch. They open the watch and it is, of course, the very same watch I owned briefly: same scratch on the crystal, same waxy substance, same watch. I point out the problems to Mastro. He says, “So?” I tell him I owned the watch, bla, bla, bla…he says, “Impossible. It’s been part of the same collection for years.” Oh well, maybe someone had been mass-producing these things for years.

The watch sold for 900 bucks. I learned a very valuable lesson in expertise.

[calvindog]

Joe, good story.

Greg, it sounds like you don't have a problem with Bill so you might not be the correct person to write to the judge. Maybe you can write to him about JP Cohen?

In all seriousness, defendants send scores of so-called character letters to sentencing judges in an effort to convince the judge that the defendant is a better person than the crime he committed would indicate, that there is another side of the defendant. Rarely, however, do victims of the defendant write in and provide a human face to the ramifications of the crimes. I can tell you that such letters make a difference. I'm not suggesting for a second I want Mastro to get maximum jail time, I just want the sentencing judge to know the truth about what Mastro is which, at least yesterday, made clear he still refuses to accept responsibility for his crimes and continues to blame others for what he and only he did.

[botn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Joe, good story.

Greg, it sounds like you don't have a problem with Bill so you might not be the correct person to write to the judge. Maybe you can write to him about JP Cohen?

In all seriousness, defendants send scores of so-called character letters to sentencing judges in an effort to convince the judge that the defendant is a better person than the crime he committed would indicate, that there is another side of the defendant. Rarely, however, do victims of the defendant write in and provide a human face to the ramifications of the crimes. I can tell you that such letters make a difference. I'm not suggesting for a second I want Mastro to get maximum jail time, I just want the sentencing judge to know the truth about what Mastro is which, at least yesterday, made clear he still refuses to accept responsibility for his crimes and continues to blame others for what he and only he did.

Oh Jeff, you know big brother is watching me so I have to be nice to everyone--especially JP Cohen otherwise I will not be able to post here and what would you and others do without my valuable posts? Actually hoping JP will become an advertiser soon.

Thanks for the info on the character letters. Assume you wrote yours? If not, I guess you can just cut and paste comments you made here to save time having to retype everything.

[Griffins]

I think you're thinking of Don Steinbach. I've got Mastro & Steinbach catalogs from about '97-'99.

[bigtrain]

Adam's point is well taken. I don't know if I was a victim or not. Nevertheless,the damage done to the hobby as a whole is tremendous and the Judge should be made aware of that.
I know that Peter Nash would accuse Rob Lifson of kidnapping the Lindbergh baby if not for the fact that that happened decades before Rob was born. Nevertheless, as to his assertion on the Hauls of Shame website that Lifson knew the Wagner was trimmed when he sold it in 2000, I would like to know whether this can be proven or whether it is just another pot shot at REA that Nash likes to take at every opportunity.

[Rickyy]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Adam's point is well taken. I don't know if I was a victim or not. Nevertheless,the damage done to the hobby as a whole is tremendous and the Judge should be made aware of that.

+1

I guess the current owner of the highest graded Wagner is happy with the item irregardless of whether it was trimmed or not...or that it's thus graded and priced inaccurately... his quote from Yahoo Sports states.."As a collector of rare cards and a fan who enjoys the history of the game of baseball, today's news does not change my pride in owning the Honus Wagner T-206 card. In fact, I've been advised that the notoriety of this turn of events has actually increased the value of the card and I will continue to enjoy having it as part of the 'Diamondbacks collection.' "

Well he should heed Adam's words...if he's truly in it for the "fun of collceting" he should be saddened by this turn of events like all of us are...

Ricky Y

[jhs5120]

We should put together a petition with as many signatures we can get. Someone should write a letter describing the state of the hobby and the corruption and fraud and how much we support a strict penalty for Mastro. I would certainly sign that!

[CaramelMan]

who was Bill's partner at the time? wasn't someone else his equal in that AH?

didn't the company continue, just with a name change?

who is to say the shenanigans stopped just because they changed a name?

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by botn

Actually Jeff, I am not kidding. Apparently you think the rest of us have seen the evidence that you some how got to see. How can anyone write a letter as a victim if they do not know they are a victim? Maybe you are simply suggesting everyone should do their civic duty by writing letters to judges who are about to sentence people who have been convicted of or admitted to committing felonies

Please tell me how Mastro bidders are supposed to know Bill threatened people and the details of those threats? All I know about Bill is that he ran an auction house, he was a collector, he has now admitted to trimming the T206 which is in a PSA 8 holder and has admitted to shill bidding.

Does Guzman really need to hear from outsiders to tell him to put the bad guys away?

Now I wish I saved the email thread that I had with Bill!

I was Selling an SGC 60/5 E90-1 Ty Cobb. In the end... I decided not to sell it to him... at ALL, For any amount! (I decided not to sell it to him because he began to become frustrated & abusive during our email negotiations) He then delivered "A Most threating speech", that would of made you, have Jeff's Desire, to see Bill get what he deserves!

After about a year went by, I read that Good ole' Bill found religion to help save his neck! I knew from our email conversation's that he must of went through a "Quicking" in his conversion.

I eventually sold the card through REA and received a Fair price, $3,000 more than the Belligerent Bill swore It wasn't worth!

This is All I Know About Bill... And I don't Care if he Trimmed the "The Card"!

As Always...

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by botn

"in a PSA 8 holder"

In a holder by complicity or poorly done work???

[shelly]

I am sorry to repeat this over and over again. I was there when the card was graded. So was Bill Heitman. Bill Huges came out and admited at that time the card was trimmed. For Psa to bury there heads in the sand and say they had no idea is total BS.
What amazed me the most is that the card guys belived Mastro and not there own eys.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by shelly

I am sorry to repeat this over and over again. I was there when the card was graded. So was Bill Heitman. Bill Huges came out and admited at that time the card was trimmed. For Psa to bury there heads in the sand and say they had no idea is total BS.
What amazed me the most is that the card guys belived Mastro and not there own eys.

Shelly you were there at PSA when (according to legend) Bill Hughes graded it? Who else was there and what were the discussions at the time?

[shelly]

It would take to long to write what took place. I would suggest reading the card I think it has all the info you will need. I can also tell you that I called Bruce on a bet after he bought the card. He said he knew it was trimmed but they where going to make a fortune just on the publicity.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Shelly you were there at PSA when (according to legend) Bill Hughes graded it? Who else was there and what were the discussions at the time?

Yeah I am a bit confused too. I had never heard by anyone's account that Shelly was there. Yesterday I learned about character letters and today learned that there were a whole lot of people at PSA when the T206 Wagner was graded an 8.

[autograf]

Yeah.....bid on hundreds of items over the years and don't doubt that SOMETHING happened. Just wondering how we know what particular item and how much the shilling was. Kind of difficult to write a nebulous letter assuming you were shilled. Doesn't sound good for the other plaintiffs given Mastro's statements. Assuming he will tell all to minimize his 2-1/2 years if possible. As for altered items, I remember a thread about a cabinet card that Jay Miller consigned that had had substantial work done on it that we discussed. Not sure it was disclosed till we discussed it.

Threatening is a far different offense than shill bidding. Not better or worse but a little more obvious than being bumped $100 on a $1000 card unnecessarily.......

[oldjudge]

Jeff--if we have a specific item in mind that we think could have been shilled, can we get a yea or nay from someone?

[drcy]

By design and intention, much shilling is covert, hidden. The victims are not supposed to know they are being shilled. An auction house or consignor never sends you an email notice that they are bidding against you on lot #256. Many bidders never know their win price was artificially inflated.

On a side note, my guess/opinion is that these days it's more likely a consignor (or associates) places a shill bid than an auction house. Even where there are suspiciously high prices, if an auction house denies they shilled, they may be telling the truth.

[autograf]

Agree completely on a consignor......I would love to see substantive proof of me being shilled. I need to look back through the items I'd won......

[Exhibitman]

Classic scumbaggery. Let's gloss over the fact that I cheated people and lied my arse off and let's instead focus on the fact that only 2 people wrote to the judge...

Maybe Nash can give Mastro lessons on proper prisoner deportment. Which gang shot caller does one fellate first? How much in canteen payments will it cost not to be beaten up each day? When purchasing a shank does one have to pay cash or is credit offered?

Letter I am planning to send to the court:

I am writing to you in connection with the above-referenced matter not as an attorney but as a collector and researcher in the sports card hobby, to provide some assessment of the impact of Mr. Mastro’s acts on the hobby. I am a contributor to The Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards as well as the author of America’s Great Boxing Cards, an encyclopedia devoted to the subject. I have also written articles for periodicals such as Vintage and Classic Baseball Collector and Old Cardboard. I do not know if my purchases from his company were fraudulent. In my opinion Mr. Mastro’s actions have caused damage far beyond merely the immediate victims of his fraudulent acts. Researchers like me rely on results of sales published by auction houses to establish values for the cards sold when preparing our books and articles. To the extent that there were fraudulent sales reported as actual sales resulting from bid manipulation on the part of Mr. Mastro and the others involved in his scam, it resulted in the dissemination of inaccurate card pricing data into the researching community. Sorting the fake data from the real data is going to take years and is probably impossible to correct until items are resold and new price points emerge. Card prices are like the prices for any other investment: accuracy is key. As far as I am concerned, Mr. Mastro’s actions undermined the accuracy of the prices reported for cards that his company allegedly sold, which hurts all collectors.

[ALR-bishop]

Good one Adam

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Jeff--if we have a specific item in mind that we think could have been shilled, can we get a yea or nay from someone?

I agree Jay, I won many items from Mastro Auctions and never put in a Maximum bid. I won all the items I wanted without a maximum bid. Certainly this does not address any fake items or items not describe accurately. I see that there are some members on a witch hunt. This happens all the time with celebrities, sports stars etc. But, I know Bill Mastro has admitted some wrong doings in the court, the Wagner being the big one. I don't see shill bidding anywhere. This will certainly get some feedback. Let's see the proof of shilling, name the items.

Joe

[botn]

Jeff Lichtman is either in possession of or has seen the bidder records many times as he has alluded to it over and over. He has also said hundreds if not thousands of bidders were shilled. How do we get to see bidder records to see if we are victims?

[mightyq]

figured i would throw my story out there,

I bid on a ton of mastro auctions nonsports cards over the years, probably from 2002-08 going into legendary. anyway i forget the auction date, but i went to bed with ceiling bids on 7 lots, each was well off my ceiling and i was the winner on most. next day comes and i find out i won all 7 lots and the bidding stopped within 1 bid of each auction that would have out bid me. figure i paid thousands more that day for putting the ceiling bids in. never did that again. matter of fact that was the start of the end for me. although i had no proof i didnt need it to know that to have all 7 lots reach my ceiling was anything but shill bidding. now i dont know for sure, but i would guess that bill himself didnt do this all night long. I would assume some very in the know employees did lots if not all the dirty work, and when bill takes the stand to throw a few under the bus real soon we will get an idea as to how and who done this. pretty sure bill will be singing away when the time comes. If i were a part of bills all star team of the mastro years i would be getting ready to have my life ruined by him and ready for my family to get embarassed when articles are written for weeks to come. we will never know who what and the monetary value of all the shilling, but rest assured the govt. isnt spending all this money and man power to put this together just to catch bill. could you imagine the puppets that did the dirty work, full well knowing their guilty. they wake up each morning knowing its one day closer to their own demise.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by mightyq

figured i would throw my story out there,

I bid on a ton of mastro auctions nonsports cards over the years, probably from 2002-08 going into legendary. anyway i forget the auction date, but i went to bed with ceiling bids on 7 lots, each was well off my ceiling and i was the winner on most. next day comes and i find out i won all 7 lots and the bidding stopped within 1 bid of each auction that would have out bid me. figure i paid thousands more that day for putting the ceiling bids in. never did that again. matter of fact that was the start of the end for me. although i had no proof i didnt need it to know that to have all 7 lots reach my ceiling was anything but shill bidding. now i dont know for sure, but i would guess that bill himself didnt do this all night long. I would assume some very in the know employees did lots if not all the dirty work, and when bill takes the stand to throw a few under the bus real soon we will get an idea as to how and who done this. pretty sure bill will be singing away when the time comes. If i were a part of bills all star team of the mastro years i would be getting ready to have my life ruined by him and ready for my family to get embarassed when articles are written for weeks to come. we will never know who what and the monetary value of all the shilling, but rest assured the govt. isnt spending all this money and man power to put this together just to catch bill. could you imagine the puppets that did the dirty work, full well knowing their guilty. they wake up each morning knowing its one day closer to their own demise.

Marty I share your experience as a lot of us have gone through the myriad of emotions over this whole mess, including surprise, denial, frustration and finally anger. I do wonder, though, how much his associates and employees have to worry about. It's not that I think that he will be a martyr and bite the bullet for the whole crew, but I am not sure there will be the all-encompassing web of justice you anticipate. Maybe someone will be indicted and get probation but I doubt anyone is going to get the whole story and all responsible individuals brought to justice. Hope I'm wrong....

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by mightyq

figured i would throw my story out there,

I bid on a ton of mastro auctions nonsports cards over the years, probably from 2002-08 going into legendary. anyway i forget the auction date, but i went to bed with ceiling bids on 7 lots, each was well off my ceiling and i was the winner on most. next day comes and i find out i won all 7 lots and the bidding stopped within 1 bid of each auction that would have out bid me. figure i paid thousands more that day for putting the ceiling bids in. never did that again. matter of fact that was the start of the end for me. although i had no proof i didnt need it to know that to have all 7 lots reach my ceiling was anything but shill bidding. now i dont know for sure, but i would guess that bill himself didnt do this all night long. I would assume some very in the know employees did lots if not all the dirty work, and when bill takes the stand to throw a few under the bus real soon we will get an idea as to how and who done this. pretty sure bill will be singing away when the time comes. If i were a part of bills all star team of the mastro years i would be getting ready to have my life ruined by him and ready for my family to get embarassed when articles are written for weeks to come. we will never know who what and the monetary value of all the shilling, but rest assured the govt. isnt spending all this money and man power to put this together just to catch bill. could you imagine the puppets that did the dirty work, full well knowing their guilty. they wake up each morning knowing its one day closer to their own demise.

GREAT POST, thanks

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by botn

Jeff Lichtman is either in possession of or has seen the bidder records many times as he has alluded to it over and over. He has also said hundreds if not thousands of bidders were shilled. How do we get to see bidder records to see if we are victims?

By the way, Greg, I have seen some of the Mastro bidding records. And wouldn't you know it, even some consignors shill bid their own lots. Even some people on this thread. Can you imagine that?

[nsaddict]

Very interesting Jeff, can you give us a hint without names? Let's say post number(s)

Tom, you got me...Bill and I made a killing on the Beanie Baby craze haha

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by calvindog

By the way, Greg, I have seen some of the Mastro bidding records. And wouldn't you know it, even some consignors shill bid their own lots. Even some people on this thread. Can you imagine that?

I am shocked such things go on.