Trying to identify new T206 underprints...or stamp.

[thehoodedcoder]

For the low low price of 50 thousand dollars you can own one of these cards. LOL

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...#ht_309wt_1400

They should have marked it up to the 99,999. that is what darby-s thinks he will get for his yellow brown collection. LOL.

kevin

[Gradedcardman]

The price may be crazy but Darby-S is one of the best and most knowledgeable on this board. As he and many others say, if you don't like the price then move on but don't insult the seller with a lowball offer to just prove a point.

[npa589]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

The price may be crazy but Darby-S is one of the best and most knowledgeable on this board. As he and many others say, if you don't like the price then move on but don't insult the seller with a lowball offer to just prove a point.

+1

What some people need to do, before they comment on prices, is put their thoughts through the prism of "Do I know the reason for why they have the price so high?" I'll help you out and tell you that you don't know the exact answer. So, either move on or politely ask the seller why. There are a myriad of reasons why a seller may have a card for sale at what you perceive to be an insane price. What if they have no need for the money, and enjoy having it in their collection, but are listing it for 15 cents a month with a conditional approach of "If someone is willing to pay this price, then I would then be willing to give it up."?

Also, there is something with regard to reselling an item that is important with regard to taxation..., but that's a whole 'nother issue.

[mrvster]

In all due respect, I know the seller of that lot(Weimer,Joss, epdg m/c)...and believe it or not, his buy it now is not that far off....

Weimer is sister to mine....There are approx. 12 or less accounted for(ghost underprints).....There are the same amount of Brown Old Mills and Cobb Backs....These under print back ghosts are extremely, extremely rare and cool.....they are on a different level and would expect brown old mill or better pricing on them....

meaning, a 15 k price tag on that card alone presently would not be unheard of(especially relative to rare backs)......

Joss yellow brown is one of the nicest examples of yellow brown scrap....

Collectors may "think" there are a lot of yellow browns out here.....I estimate 80 or so.....that is rarer than drum my friend.......perceptually "common" to scrap, they are very rare......joss could bring 8 k plus at the right setting(rea) presently.....and future is the limit....


That 50/50 split back epdg is next to impossible....REA setting 6-8k EASY....maybe , SHOULD I DARE SAY, 10k??? why not....

15+10+8.....pure speculation.......not way off buy it now....I bet he'd get close to those in REA.....


THEY ARE JUSt that rare....

Dan's collection is sick.......60-80 on that lot would not be unheard of....and mark my words, future that will be a bargain.....no one realizes yet the uniqueness and rarity of these scraps....


the future looks bright as collectors become more educated....

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by mrvster

In all due respect, I know the seller of that lot(Weimer,Joss, epdg m/c)...and believe it or not, his buy it now is not that far off....

Weimer is sister to mine....There are approx. 12 or less accounted for(ghost underprints).....There are the same amount of Brown Old Mills and Cobb Backs....These under print back ghosts are extremely, extremely rare and cool.....they are on a different level and would expect brown old mill or better pricing on them....

meaning, a 15 k price tag on that card alone presently would not be unheard of(especially relative to rare backs)......

Joss yellow brown is one of the nicest examples of yellow brown scrap....

Collectors may "think" there are a lot of yellow browns out here.....I estimate 80 or so.....that is rarer than drum my friend.......perceptually "common" to scrap, they are very rare......joss could bring 8 k plus at the right setting(rea) presently.....and future is the limit....


That 50/50 split back epdg is next to impossible....REA setting 6-8k EASY....maybe , SHOULD I DARE SAY, 10k??? why not....

15+10+8.....pure speculation.......not way off buy it now....I bet he'd get close to those in REA.....


THEY ARE JUSt that rare....

Dan's collection is sick.......60-80 on that lot would not be unheard of....and mark my words, future that will be a bargain.....no one realizes yet the uniqueness and rarity of these scraps....


the future looks bright as collectors become more educated....

my dopner card is 1 of 4 or 5. that makes it rarer than all of the insanity you speak of here. i should list it for 150k since there is even less of them.

even if i listed it...it wouldn't sell at that price. its insulting in the reverse to see someone asking an absurd price on a card as it is to get 'lowballed' on an offer.

kevin

[David R]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

my dopner card is 1 of 4 or 5. that makes it rarer than all of the insanity you speak of here. i should list it for 150k since there is even less of them.

even if i listed it...it wouldn't sell at that price. its insulting in the reverse to see someone asking an absurd price on a card as it is to get 'lowballed' on an offer.

kevin

+1 I totally agree Kevin.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by mrvster

In all due respect, I know the seller of that lot(Weimer,Joss, epdg m/c)...and believe it or not, his buy it now is not that far off....

Weimer is sister to mine....There are approx. 12 or less accounted for(ghost underprints).....There are the same amount of Brown Old Mills and Cobb Backs....These under print back ghosts are extremely, extremely rare and cool.....they are on a different level and would expect brown old mill or better pricing on them....

meaning, a 15 k price tag on that card alone presently would not be unheard of(especially relative to rare backs)......

Joss yellow brown is one of the nicest examples of yellow brown scrap....

Collectors may "think" there are a lot of yellow browns out here.....I estimate 80 or so.....that is rarer than drum my friend.......perceptually "common" to scrap, they are very rare......joss could bring 8 k plus at the right setting(rea) presently.....and future is the limit....


That 50/50 split back epdg is next to impossible....REA setting 6-8k EASY....maybe , SHOULD I DARE SAY, 10k??? why not....

15+10+8.....pure speculation.......not way off buy it now....I bet he'd get close to those in REA.....


THEY ARE JUSt that rare....

Dan's collection is sick.......60-80 on that lot would not be unheard of....and mark my words, future that will be a bargain.....no one realizes yet the uniqueness and rarity of these scraps....


the future looks bright as collectors become more educated....

Said many times before only worth what somebody is willing to pay you for them.

I will agree the days of these major oddballs being sub one thousand dollar cards is long gone, however in terms of value for the BIN price if there was really a value or deal to be had they still wouldn’t be listed and would have sold already.

Cheers,

John

[Sean]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Said many times before only worth what somebody is willing to pay you for them.

I agree. They're Dan's cards. He can ask whatever price he wants for them. And we are free to not buy them if we so choose. There is no need to feel insulted, this is simply business.

Now if you want insults, make Dan a lowball offer.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Sean

I agree. They're Dan's cards. He can ask whatever price he wants for them. And we are free to not buy them if we so choose. There is no need to feel insulted, this is simply business.

Now if you want insults, make Dan a lowball offer.

exactly...and they just sit there. its not a business if you don't sell anything.

its amusing. some cards have been there for 3 years. maybe not his but definitely some of his have been there for at least 2.

its annoying to have to continue to scroll past them day after day. its a waste of everyones time. cut everyone a break already. list the thing for real or delist it.


kevin

[thehoodedcoder]

the way you have them all lined up yet the cards are skewed to me says all of these cards got something transfered onto them after they were cut right?

what makes you think they were printed first?

[atx840]

I overlaid them to try and rebuild the pattern (which isn't limited to one card) to help identify it. The detail is really high on these, similar to ghosts and could have been printed before or after the Piedmont ad...but I believe the sheet was still intact at the time. It is not uncommon for printers to reuse sheets for testing purposes.

Either the printer grabbed a sheet and tested for another project (this new pattern) and set it aside and later on was used to test T206s (saving paper). Then the sheet was handcut and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Or a printer grabbed an old test T206 sheet to test this pattern and later on it was cut up and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Similar to the Lash's Bitters sheet.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by atx840

I overlaid them to try and rebuild the pattern (which isn't limited to one card) to help identify it. The detail is really high on these, similar to ghosts and could have been printed before or after the Piedmont ad...but I believe the sheet was still intact at the time. It is not uncommon for printers to reuse sheets for testing purposes.

Either the printer grabbed a sheet and tested for another project (this new pattern) and set it aside and later on was used to test T206s (saving paper). Then the sheet was handcut and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Or a printer grabbed an old test T206 sheet to test this pattern and later on it was cut up and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Similar to the Lash's Bitters sheet.

they are cockeyed. sheets of paper are square or rectangular. how do you run a diamond shaped piece of paper through a press? you don't. your pattern is not at right angles to the sheet the way it would have been cut for the card.

as a side note it doesn't look like they are berries. they look like cuff links and a hand.

kevin

[steve B]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

they are cockeyed. sheets of paper are square or rectangular. how do you run a diamond shaped piece of paper through a press? you don't. your pattern is not at right angles to the sheet the way it would have been cut for the card.

as a side note it doesn't look like they are berries. they look like cuff links and a hand.

kevin

It's also only one color out of several. Without context there's no way to tell if the print is angled, or if the hand and whatever the other items are were supposed to be angled on the item being printed.

That one has a normal impression and another an impression that's doubled means they weren't created on the same sheet.

Paper can also get caught in the press and get ruined in many ways, among them getting rotated, when that happens two corners get messed up very badly, the part of the sheet in the center is usually ok. But it gets partly printed "diamond shaped"

You'd think the result would be tossed in the trash, but not always. Stuff happens even with modern equipment and better QC. I've pulled a card from a modern pack that was entirely torn in half.

I won't get into the price argument, each misprint of this sort or the cylinder impressions "ghosts" on the back are unique or nearly so. Caption problems like Dopner are also very uncommon. 1-2 existing compared to 4-5 existing isn't much difference. (Although I think that number will increase for the caption mistakes) I don't have a problem with someone asking a lot for an item in that category. I have a few cards I paid silly prices for decades ago. for some it's worked out well, others not so well. The ones I passed up......
(Orr rookie from the test set, $100 which at the time was insane since I could get nearly all the other topps sets from 66-late 70's for that much. )

Steve B

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's also only one color out of several. Without context there's no way to tell if the print is angled, or if the hand and whatever the other items are were supposed to be angled on the item being printed.

That one has a normal impression and another an impression that's doubled means they weren't created on the same sheet.

Paper can also get caught in the press and get ruined in many ways, among them getting rotated, when that happens two corners get messed up very badly, the part of the sheet in the center is usually ok. But it gets partly printed "diamond shaped"

You'd think the result would be tossed in the trash, but not always. Stuff happens even with modern equipment and better QC. I've pulled a card from a modern pack that was entirely torn in half.

I won't get into the price argument, each misprint of this sort or the cylinder impressions "ghosts" on the back are unique or nearly so. Caption problems like Dopner are also very uncommon. 1-2 existing compared to 4-5 existing isn't much difference. (Although I think that number will increase for the caption mistakes) I don't have a problem with someone asking a lot for an item in that category. I have a few cards I paid silly prices for decades ago. for some it's worked out well, others not so well. The ones I passed up......
(Orr rookie from the test set, $100 which at the time was insane since I could get nearly all the other topps sets from 66-late 70's for that much. )

Steve B

as being someone that worked in a print shop for 4 years, its not worth the time to try and realign crumpled paper onto your neatly stacked pile of output. to try to cram it through a cutter. you simply have problems "jogging" the paper or aligning it properly in the cutter. you toss them in the garbage almost 100 percent of the time, unless they are numbered and or you need an exact count of them.

your suggesting that your back has a diamond print and it might be normal. i submit the question "how many fronts have a diamond print". i have yet to see one single example. show me a front and i will consider it plausible.

kevin

[mrvster]

I am a T206 error collector and the Dopner is a silly error...(BTW, there are more than 5 examples or so on them, I have seen them myself).....a extremely miniscule amount of the "R" blocked out, that card is not over $300.00 card imho.....My Hemphills missing part H and E are much cooler....

Scraps and caption errors are ON ANOTHER DIMENSION.....apples and oranges....

These scraps are altenative T206....Dopner is a crap card, not a scrap

[steve B]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

as being someone that worked in a print shop for 4 years, its not worth the time to try and realign crumpled paper onto your neatly stacked pile of output. to try to cram it through a cutter. you simply have problems "jogging" the paper or aligning it properly in the cutter. you toss them in the garbage almost 100 percent of the time, unless they are numbered and or you need an exact count of them.

your suggesting that your back has a diamond print and it might be normal. i submit the question "how many fronts have a diamond print". i have yet to see one single example. show me a front and i will consider it plausible.

kevin

I'm not suggesting they realigned it, or cut it down to reuse.

I'm saying that the possibilities I see are-
The sheet was being used in setup, and got wrecked when it jammed. Then was tossed, and "rescued" maybe to bring someones kid a few cards to play with. Similar to the way any other printers scrap got saved. (Some of the other errors are normal production, some aren't)

OR
The hands and berries/olives/whatever were intended to be printed on an angle, and were. The makeready sheets from whatever that was were done on T206 makeready sheets since there was enough blank space available.

Some items are more efficiently printed skewed on the sheet. Like diamond shaped labels, or envelopes. Irregular shapes can also work better skewed a bit.

I think at some point there will be a trade card found that's not square or rectangular, and includes the hand holding a packet of something. A label is a possibility, but using cardstock to setup for thinner stock doesn't make sense.

Steve B