Trying to identify new T206 underprints...or stamp.

[atx840]

I overlaid them to try and rebuild the pattern (which isn't limited to one card) to help identify it. The detail is really high on these, similar to ghosts and could have been printed before or after the Piedmont ad...but I believe the sheet was still intact at the time. It is not uncommon for printers to reuse sheets for testing purposes.

Either the printer grabbed a sheet and tested for another project (this new pattern) and set it aside and later on was used to test T206s (saving paper). Then the sheet was handcut and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Or a printer grabbed an old test T206 sheet to test this pattern and later on it was cut up and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Similar to the Lash's Bitters sheet.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by atx840

I overlaid them to try and rebuild the pattern (which isn't limited to one card) to help identify it. The detail is really high on these, similar to ghosts and could have been printed before or after the Piedmont ad...but I believe the sheet was still intact at the time. It is not uncommon for printers to reuse sheets for testing purposes.

Either the printer grabbed a sheet and tested for another project (this new pattern) and set it aside and later on was used to test T206s (saving paper). Then the sheet was handcut and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Or a printer grabbed an old test T206 sheet to test this pattern and later on it was cut up and we get unfinished T206 fronts with pattern on the back.

Similar to the Lash's Bitters sheet.

they are cockeyed. sheets of paper are square or rectangular. how do you run a diamond shaped piece of paper through a press? you don't. your pattern is not at right angles to the sheet the way it would have been cut for the card.

as a side note it doesn't look like they are berries. they look like cuff links and a hand.

kevin

[steve B]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

they are cockeyed. sheets of paper are square or rectangular. how do you run a diamond shaped piece of paper through a press? you don't. your pattern is not at right angles to the sheet the way it would have been cut for the card.

as a side note it doesn't look like they are berries. they look like cuff links and a hand.

kevin

It's also only one color out of several. Without context there's no way to tell if the print is angled, or if the hand and whatever the other items are were supposed to be angled on the item being printed.

That one has a normal impression and another an impression that's doubled means they weren't created on the same sheet.

Paper can also get caught in the press and get ruined in many ways, among them getting rotated, when that happens two corners get messed up very badly, the part of the sheet in the center is usually ok. But it gets partly printed "diamond shaped"

You'd think the result would be tossed in the trash, but not always. Stuff happens even with modern equipment and better QC. I've pulled a card from a modern pack that was entirely torn in half.

I won't get into the price argument, each misprint of this sort or the cylinder impressions "ghosts" on the back are unique or nearly so. Caption problems like Dopner are also very uncommon. 1-2 existing compared to 4-5 existing isn't much difference. (Although I think that number will increase for the caption mistakes) I don't have a problem with someone asking a lot for an item in that category. I have a few cards I paid silly prices for decades ago. for some it's worked out well, others not so well. The ones I passed up......
(Orr rookie from the test set, $100 which at the time was insane since I could get nearly all the other topps sets from 66-late 70's for that much. )

Steve B

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's also only one color out of several. Without context there's no way to tell if the print is angled, or if the hand and whatever the other items are were supposed to be angled on the item being printed.

That one has a normal impression and another an impression that's doubled means they weren't created on the same sheet.

Paper can also get caught in the press and get ruined in many ways, among them getting rotated, when that happens two corners get messed up very badly, the part of the sheet in the center is usually ok. But it gets partly printed "diamond shaped"

You'd think the result would be tossed in the trash, but not always. Stuff happens even with modern equipment and better QC. I've pulled a card from a modern pack that was entirely torn in half.

I won't get into the price argument, each misprint of this sort or the cylinder impressions "ghosts" on the back are unique or nearly so. Caption problems like Dopner are also very uncommon. 1-2 existing compared to 4-5 existing isn't much difference. (Although I think that number will increase for the caption mistakes) I don't have a problem with someone asking a lot for an item in that category. I have a few cards I paid silly prices for decades ago. for some it's worked out well, others not so well. The ones I passed up......
(Orr rookie from the test set, $100 which at the time was insane since I could get nearly all the other topps sets from 66-late 70's for that much. )

Steve B

as being someone that worked in a print shop for 4 years, its not worth the time to try and realign crumpled paper onto your neatly stacked pile of output. to try to cram it through a cutter. you simply have problems "jogging" the paper or aligning it properly in the cutter. you toss them in the garbage almost 100 percent of the time, unless they are numbered and or you need an exact count of them.

your suggesting that your back has a diamond print and it might be normal. i submit the question "how many fronts have a diamond print". i have yet to see one single example. show me a front and i will consider it plausible.

kevin

[mrvster]

I am a T206 error collector and the Dopner is a silly error...(BTW, there are more than 5 examples or so on them, I have seen them myself).....a extremely miniscule amount of the "R" blocked out, that card is not over $300.00 card imho.....My Hemphills missing part H and E are much cooler....

Scraps and caption errors are ON ANOTHER DIMENSION.....apples and oranges....

These scraps are altenative T206....Dopner is a crap card, not a scrap

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by mrvster

I am a T206 error collector and the Dopner is a silly error...(BTW, there are more than 5 examples or so on them, I have seen them myself).....a extremely miniscule amount of the "R" blocked out, that card is not over $300.00 card imho.....My Hemphills missing part H and E are much cooler....

Scraps and caption errors are ON ANOTHER DIMENSION.....apples and oranges....

These scraps are altenative T206....Dopner is a crap card, not a scrap

Easy now Johnny my boy getting all fired up!

The same can be said for any of the stuff we collect. In terms of silliness folks could argue that tiny color shifts on cards or missing a touch of red are just as weak, in terms of uniqueness as a “nodgrass” etc. To each his own when it comes to this stuff. They are worth what someone is willing to pay there is no real set price. Case in point you think the “dopner” is a $300 card tops and some would argue the same for your Griffith oddball job above….it’s not just beauty that’s in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes when it comes to collectibles its price too.

On the BIN on the Weimer I will go on the record and say even I think that’s high and I would be a person in the market for those. If I had to say where I would be…I’d say 10k perhaps a bit more on the Weimer, 5k on the EPDG and 2k tops on the Joss. So even for me that’s a lot of ground to cover to get to 50k just too much amazing stuff for 50k to be had.

But hey they’re his cards, eBay is a market place and he can list them every day of the week for all I care not my place to dictate to anybody what should and shouldn’t be listed let alone at what prices they should be listed for…that’s where Kevin and I disagree.

Cheers,

John

[steve B]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

as being someone that worked in a print shop for 4 years, its not worth the time to try and realign crumpled paper onto your neatly stacked pile of output. to try to cram it through a cutter. you simply have problems "jogging" the paper or aligning it properly in the cutter. you toss them in the garbage almost 100 percent of the time, unless they are numbered and or you need an exact count of them.

your suggesting that your back has a diamond print and it might be normal. i submit the question "how many fronts have a diamond print". i have yet to see one single example. show me a front and i will consider it plausible.

kevin

I'm not suggesting they realigned it, or cut it down to reuse.

I'm saying that the possibilities I see are-
The sheet was being used in setup, and got wrecked when it jammed. Then was tossed, and "rescued" maybe to bring someones kid a few cards to play with. Similar to the way any other printers scrap got saved. (Some of the other errors are normal production, some aren't)

OR
The hands and berries/olives/whatever were intended to be printed on an angle, and were. The makeready sheets from whatever that was were done on T206 makeready sheets since there was enough blank space available.

Some items are more efficiently printed skewed on the sheet. Like diamond shaped labels, or envelopes. Irregular shapes can also work better skewed a bit.

I think at some point there will be a trade card found that's not square or rectangular, and includes the hand holding a packet of something. A label is a possibility, but using cardstock to setup for thinner stock doesn't make sense.

Steve B