Getting sick of the more obvious frauds

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Even discounting the limitless number of outright frauds and scammers on Ebay, that site in particular is nothing like it used to be 10 years ago. So much of the business model of many sellers on there now seems to be hope for a sucker to come along.

Very true and very sad to see the current state of this hobby. I long for the early days of Ebay in the late 90's and early 2000's when there were actually AUCTIONS for bidders to determine what the value of a card was. Not just a bunch of stupid, ridiculously priced BINs sitting on that site collecting dust hoping for the suckers to come by.

[npa589]

I was kind of surprised to see who the seller was for this card...

I guess it's a good thing that the discussed part of the description has been removed, but misrepresentation makes me a little sick to my stomach.


With regard to pricing, I see no reason why someone can't ask whatever they want for a card. There are a few reasons for this, one being freedom, but the other is the unpredictability of certain buyers, usually ones who aren't as involved in the hobby as some of you more knowledgeable buyers.



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[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by npa589

but the other is the unpredictability of certain buyers, usually ones who aren't as involved in the hobby as some of you more knowledgeable buyers.

Right....that's the "sucker" theory which has been discussed. Those are the sellers who are blacklisted and completely avoided when doing business

Buyers including many new to the hobby are becoming A LOT more diligent and are starting to know better with the endless supply of info on pricing that's out there. But it's true, as long as there's suckers, there will always be rip off artists waiting in the shadows for them. Every hobby has them, and some have a lot more of them than others such as ours.

[npa589]

I suppose it depends if sellers are simply listing with the "unpredictability of buyers" in mind, as versus the "naivete of buyers". Conning, lying, misrepresenting and item is and does stink of "rip-off artists". This is rampant on eBay, and its only benefit should be to quickly announce to everyone to do their own research before making any purchase. Then again, as is discussed here, sometimes there is information that is purported that isn't able to be researched. This is where sellers prey on any buyers, not just buyers with a relatively low amount of knowledge.

As many have articulated here, if a seller is simply putting a price tag on an item that is 5x the "value", then this price choice is not indicative of an intent to rip off. The price choice is not what determines value, the purchase price is what carries that burden. That having been said, from my experience, the unpredictability of buyers does not have as much to do with people new to the hobby, but instead to buyers within the hobby who have endless checkbooks. I mean, look at the recent prices of T206 backs that have sold. I can't tell you how many times I have priced something that I deemed "very high", accompanied with a best offer option, only to have it bought without an offer ever being sent.

I would hope that many buyers new to the hobby are becoming A LOT more diligent, I would think that that is simple common sense. I've only been involved in the hobby for a few years, and my first T206 Cub wasn't purchased for 300$ because it was an "ANTIQUE BASEBALL CARD GEORGE BROWN CUBS T206 BV$6000"
If a grown man does no research on an item, and pays, in the eyes of knowledgeable hobbyists, 10x what the card's actual "value" is, then don't blame the seller.

I wrote most of this stuff up before reading through the posts of this thread, and don't want to get too off topic per Leon's request!


Anyways, more stuff that I had already written:

I suppose it depends on how one views the other side of the transactional spectrum, as I now noticed John mentioned. If a buyer offers 10$ for a 200$ card, what do you do? If it were me, I almost always would simply counter the offer, and say thank you for your interest. I've never been offended by an offer. Some buyers, which I suppose I understand, may just choose not to respond and ignore an offer --- which is certainly understandable in some cases --- or may choose to be offended and angered by the offer, as though it insults their intelligence. I say this because I know buyers will feel this when they see certain prices that sellers put on their cards. Heck, I do it naturally before I remind myself to not get offended by it. By the same token, when you don't win a certain card you were bidding on, don't you end up saying "Man, some idiot paid that much for that card?; Good for them!" The fact is that, though you're incredulous at the price, it did in fact sell for that price. I believe that's happened to me when buying T206 Cubs maybe 15 times in the last 2 weeks, heh!



Regarding scanner fraud, it's just fricking stupid. Greed plays such a role in people, and without trying to sound righteous, I simply don't understand it - as I know many of you don't either. It is infuriating, but it won't change. Ebay is focused on high prices, and they don't really care about the means at which this is accomplished, means that include shill bidding, fraud (as long as a buyer doesn't realize they were defrauded by a seller, at which point, if a buyer does realize it --- eBay will oh so joyfully come to their rescue! ), etc.

Perhaps it's now the exception and not the rule anymore, but there are plenty of sellers who provide fantastic scans and don't put any BS information, many of which sell or post on NET54.

Perhaps, for once, we should start a thread of GREAT sellers. What a novel idea!


Sorry if all that was too tangential, I wrote it down and figure it would be a waste of my time to erase it now!


As always, I enjoyed many of your posts! Other than yours Glenn j/k, but I'm sure we'd get along in person or on the phone!

Oh, and I LOVED the Anchorman reference.


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[npa589]

Kumbaya stage with a long epilogue written by someone arriving late to the party because he was teaching music to a bunch of elementary kids. Hahaha... sorry everyone!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by npa589

Kumbaya stage with a long epilogue written by someone arriving late to the party because he was teaching music to a bunch of elementary kids. Hahaha... sorry everyone!

Nate, ironically our 1st-grade music teacher always had us sing 'Kumbaya' - every week for a year.

All's well that ends well. As anyone who's ever in a dispute with me will remind everyone, I've had some sort of argument with anyone who's opinionated on this board, but any grudges being held are never on my end. It's just the internet.

[npa589]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Nate, ironically our 1st-grade music teacher always had us sing 'Kumbaya' - every week for a year.

All's well that ends well. As anyone who's ever in a dispute with me will remind everyone, I've had some sort of argument with anyone who's opinionated on this board, but any grudges being held are never on my end. It's just the internet.

Well said Scott. I think, for the most part, many of the disagreements would end up sounding a lot like common ground if in person, with a glass of whiskey in each person's hand.

[sylbry]

I long for the day when sellers price their cards at what they are willing to take rather than going on a fishing trip to see what they can get.

Can't stand the "you got taken because you were not smart about it" line of reasoning. That is an admittance of knowingly taking advantage of people.

The hobby is great. Too bad there are so many people that make is suck.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sylbry

I long for the day when sellers price their cards at what they are willing to take rather than going on a fishing trip to see what they can get.

The above is exactly what I was talking about when I posted (immediately before it) "This has been explained before, but I don't think anyone's listening."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The above is exactly what I was talking about when I posted (immediately before it) "This has been explained before, but I don't think anyone's listening."

I understand that business model ebay is dictating. It still sucks.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

I understand that business model ebay is dictating. It still sucks.

It does. Also, if you think about how ebay auctions were run 10+ years ago, our complaint was normally that starting prices were too high. No biggy - we simply didn't bid, they were eventually run at lower starting prices, and they sold for market value. What caused that situation? My guess is that generally it was unknowedgeable sellers who didn't want to get screwed, not people looking for suckers.

I think some of the high BIN's are due to the same, and also to sellers paying too much for inventory. I've carefully priced out large lots in the past, bid them almost up to retail (non-ebay), then found the lot broken up on ebay a few weeks later, with very high BIN's. Many of those cards are still doing the 30-day cycle on ebay, and will HAVE to sell at what some of you consider "sucker" prices in order for the seller to make any profit. You can blame the seller for paying too much, but he's not going to back down on a $50,000 group of cards.

A lot of dynamics going on.