Getting sick of the more obvious frauds

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

What's the point of listing something if you don't want to sell it? That seems like a waste of time for you and others interested.

Matthew gets it! Exactly my biggest issue with certain "sellers" in this hobby. All they do is waste their time and everybody else's. Don't even list the card or contact buyers looking to buy....please just keep your cards for the time being if you truly have no interest in selling.

[wonkaticket]

There you go again Jeff getting bogged down in the details. What do you expect honesty and integrity, along with executives of auction houses not shilling and stealing millions from their clients?

[glynparson]

Is asking more than it sells for in auction unethical. Is Walmart unethical is bestbuy, or target , or whole foods, and every other single retailer in the country? Please give me a break.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Is asking more than it sells for in auction unethical. Is Walmart unethical is bestbuy, or target , or whole foods, and every other single retailer in the country? Please give me a break.

There's a big difference between asking for a little profit from what one paid vs. trying to bend over an unsuspecting buyer by asking 2-3 times what it's worth. Come on now. But again, anybody can ask whatever the hell they want for whatever the hell they own.....doesn't mean they're ever gonna see it

Also bad comparison, Bestbuy, Target and Walmart all compete with each other, so competive pricing will always rule the day.

[glynparson]

They match each other you are making the wrong comparison. I was equating those stores to the retailer. You just read what you want to dont you.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by glynparson

They match each other you are making the wrong comparison. I was equating those stores to the retailer. You just read what you want to dont you.

Nope read it as you post it.

[Exhibitman]

Lying is always wrong in trying to sell a card but there is nothing wrong with trying to sell a card for a profit. To be honest, I am tired of hearing people complain about a seller askingt more for a card than they want to pay. It isn't a "rip-off" or an immoral act, it is an offer of merchandise for sale. The nice thing about the market is that if no one wants to pay for a card it won't sell and the seller can either keep it or lower the price to meet the market.

Also, with respect to scans, not all scan manipulations are meant to defraud. It can be difficult to gauge whether your scanner got an accurate read on a card because it in large part depends on your monitor settings and quality. What looks good on one monitor doesn't look right on another. That said, certain AHs and sellers are notorious for jacking up the contrast and saturation on their items--like, for example, one whose leaders are under indictment. Their images sometimes are so saturated that they look like sets from Star Trek. I don't find that particularly difficult to pick up if the card is graded--I just look at the flip because I know what the flip should look like.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

There's a big difference between asking for a little profit from what one paid vs. trying to bend over an unsuspecting buyer by asking 2-3 times what it's worth. Come on now.

I fail to see the problem or a big difference. This seems to be begging for the question of a reasonable profit according to who? What is reasonable if not 2-3 times it's "worth"? 10% markup? 20%? 50?

But again, anybody can ask whatever the hell they want for whatever the hell they own.....doesn't mean they're ever gonna see it

Exactly. So let the seller ask for 2-3x it's "worth". And who again is to say that the 2-3x asking price isn't WORTH it to the buyer? You?

Also bad comparison, Bestbuy, Target and Walmart all compete with each other, so competive pricing will always rule the day.

Unless it's a one-of-a-kind item, then the 2-3x asking price can be compared to other similar items. And even then, history is no guarantee of current or future "worth" or value to the buyer.

Please understand, I'm not trying to pick on you. But the idea of others trying to determine the validity of an agreement freely made between 2 parties really rubs me the wrong way. Regardless of how absurd or unreasonable it seems.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by tschock

So let the seller ask for 2-3x it's "worth". And who again is to say that the 2-3x asking price isn't WORTH it to the buyer? You?

Well I don't know you tell me, is an item sitting on Ebay for 3 years at a ridiculous price just something that I noticed and chose not be an idiot and buy??? The answer is a resounding no and the fact that cards just sit and sit and sit for years further validates my (and other's) whole point. Not to single you out, but If you happen to be one of these "sellers" then more power to you. Hope you have all the time in the world.

On a side note, remember when owners/sellers of real property thought the housing market was going to stay "hot" forever??.....lol......yeah, how'd that turn out?

[kcohen]

We can all stipulate that a seller has every right to ask whatever he wants. That said, I have found over the last few years that certain BST users just come across as cheap hustlers. All of the sudden a card mysteriously increases in value by thousands. Nothing illegal or even unethical I suppose. I just find it tedious and it makes the forum overall less pleasant. But that's just me.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Well I don't know you tell me, is an item sitting on Ebay for 3 years at a ridiculous price just something that I noticed and chose not be an idiot and buy??? The answer is a resounding no and the fact that cards just sit and sit and sit for years further validates my (and other's) whole point.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see your "whole point" as it relates to my response to SPECIFIC comments you made (hence breaking apart your post into specific quotes and commenting on those specific statements).

"There's a big difference between asking for a little profit from what one paid vs. trying to bend over an unsuspecting buyer..." seems like a value judgement to me. I was just trying to understand what is NOT "trying to bend" someone over (in your opinion) and why 2x might be "bad" (the implication you made) but a 20% markup (or whatever) might not be. I might even agree that the buyer IS an idiot. But that doesn't mean the seller was trying bend someone over. Others have pointed out valid reasons why the asking price is so high. If it's too much, I just pass them by.

Maybe it's just my sore-spot for the "obscene profits" canard that's showing here. Sorry for that.

Not to single you out, but If you happen to be one of these "sellers" then more power to you. Hope you have all the time in the world.

Of course you did, otherwise why why imply, assume, or even need to mention this. For the record, I'm not. And have actually been blocked by a few sellers (one having the same card at the 2010 and 2012 National, and still listed online) for having offered what I considered a reasonable price. Rather than grouse about it, I just moved on. The good thing: That's one more booth I can fly past in Chicago.

On a side note, remember when owners/sellers of real property thought the housing market was going to stay "hot" forever??.....lol......yeah, how'd that turn out?

Again, not sure of your point here as it relates to anything I've said. Unless you are actually agreeing with my statement regarding the basic premise of a contract freely made between 2 parties.

On second thought, it IS a lot like buyer cards. Buy what you like for what you think is a fair price. Probably a general life lesson to boot. Cheers!

[jlehma13]

After coming back to the hobby after years away like so many of you, I had to educate myself. I have been moderately successful with pick-ups and have had a lot of fun in the process because I have done my due diligence. Sure there are cards that I have made offers on that were declined, only to remain listed for months now. I had one issue with a seller that Ebay had to step in a rectify. Point being, I may shake my head in disbelief for a moment but, ultimately I pass on those sellers that are out of line in one way or another and don't lose a second of sleep over it.
Businesses close everyday. Putting the offenders, and there will always be offenders, on your list and moving on will speed that process up.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

There you go again Jeff getting bogged down in the details. What do you expect honesty and integrity, along with executives of auction houses not shilling and stealing millions from their clients?

Millions? I have a hard time believing it could be more than $70k.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Matthew gets it! Exactly my biggest issue with certain "sellers" in this hobby. All they do is waste their time and everybody else's. Don't even list the card or contact buyers looking to buy....please just keep your cards for the time being if you truly have no interest in selling.

He was referring specifically to card shows. Why attack him for that? Also, not everyone's life is focused on "your time". I don't even know you, but based on what I'm reading, I think I might actually enjoy the thought that I'm wasting some of your time.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Runscott

He was referring specifically to card shows. Why attack him for that? Also, not everyone's life is focused on "your time". I don't even know you, but based on what I'm reading, I think I might actually enjoy the thought that I'm wasting some of your time.

And not everybody's life is focused on YOUR motives. If you don't like it move the f*ck along. Send me a PM if you're still having a hard time. And nobody is "attacking" anybody....yet.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

And not everybody's life is focused on YOUR motives. If you don't like it move the f*ck along. Send me a PM if you're still having a hard time. And nobody is "attacking" anybody....yet.

Settle down child. I have no desire to communicate with you by PM, or any other way. I was simply defending a legitimate board member who you attacked for no good reason.

Leon - is the playpen area ready yet?

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Settle down child. I have no desire to communicate with you by PM, or any other way. I was simply defending a legitimate board member who you attacked for no good reason.

Leon - is the playpen area ready yet?

Since when is a 33 year old with children a "child"? So now you like to insult? Does it make you feel better about coming up "short" in a certain department? You don't need to defend anybody, everybody is a big boy here who can handle themselves. And once again, your definition of "attacking" somebody needs help. If anything your response to me was the first "attack" in the thread.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Leon - is the playpen area ready yet?

Let's hope....because you're ready to go in it.

[Leon]

Hey guys
Let's cut the personal arguing please and get back to arguing about impotent (sic) stuff!!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey guys
Let's cut the personal arguing please and get back to arguing about impotent (sic) stuff!!

Sorry Leon, it's gotten old having to listen to this plethora of, if not children, certainly child-like new posters who jump right in and start attacking people for no good reason. I completely expected the rebuttal I got, but the original victim of Shoele$$ certainly didn't deserve it, and when I see such a blatantly ridiculous accusation, I'll defend the board member. If we don't, we'll get overrun as we did temporarily with the crowd that got kicked off the PSA board. Actually, I'm not certain this newest wave didn't come from there as well.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Matthew gets it! Exactly my biggest issue with certain "sellers" in this hobby. All they do is waste their time and everybody else's. Don't even list the card or contact buyers looking to buy....please just keep your cards for the time being if you truly have no interest in selling.

Not looking to pick a fight here but there are two sides to every coin. Yes I agree some folks asking prices are up there. Especially when a card that is very publicly sold for say $2000 and then relisted for $10,000 on eBay. Sometimes I do see this and wonder why bother?

However not all offers are inline on the buying side either. Glenn example you contacted me about my VGEX Broad Leaf Tris Speaker asking if I would consider parting with it. Ultimately your offer price was lower than what I paid for the card two years ago.

I personally wasn’t offended or anything it’s all good. I only bring this up as an example. I can see how folks can get their feathers ruffled by what seem like insane offers be that buying or selling.

Cheers,

John

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Not looking to pick a fight here but there are two sides to every coin. Yes I agree some peoples asking prices are up there. Especially when a card that is very publicly sold for say $2000 and then relisted for $10,000 on eBay. Sometimes I do see this and wonder why bother?

However not all offers are inline on they buying side either. Glenn example you contacted me about my VGEX Broad Leaf Tris Speaker asking if I would consider parting with it. Ultimately your offer price was lower than what I paid for the card two years ago.

I personally wasn’t offended or anything it’s all good. I only bring this up as an example. I can see how folks can get their feathers ruffled by what seem like insane offers be that buying or selling.

Cheers,

John

I'm glad you brought that up John, but you did fail to mention my last offer which was over $1,000 more than what you paid. But again it's irrelevant as we chose not to deal. You're a good guy John, I'm sure down the road we may come to an agreement.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

I'm glad you brought that up John, but you did fail to mention my last offer which was over $1,000 more than what you paid. But again it's irrelevant as we chose not to deal. You're a good guy John, I'm sure down the road we may come to an agreement.

Glenn, that’s not entirely true and don’t appreciate the implication.

Happy to post the PM if you like.

I was trying to be nice and have a civil discussion on how folks can see things two different ways when it comes to offers.

If you are referring to the section in which after I tell you we are way off on a deal but thank you for reaching out, in which you counter with the “I may go $5500” and then explain how you don’t buy into fads etc. Then yes I guess you offered $800 dollars more. However the deal was done seeing as you weren’t close I didn’t take this as an offer and you know that.

My point Glenn is that as much as you can say why even list a card for sale if you’re not looking to sell? The same response can be on the other side of the fence from the seller saying why even reach out to me and offer to buy something if the offer isn’t going to be a serious offer.

As to tougher back HOF players being a fad that’s all in the eye of the collector and I guess the market will decided that should I decide to sell.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Glenn, that’s not entirely true and don’t appreciate the implication.

Happy to post the PM if you like.

I was trying to be nice and have a civil discussion on how folks can see things two different ways when it comes to offers.

If you are referring to the section in which after I tell you we are way off on a deal but thank you for reaching out, in which you counter with the “I may go $5500” and then explain how you don’t buy into fads etc. Then yes I guess you offered $800 dollars more. However the deal was done seeing as you weren’t close I didn’t take this as an offer and you know that.

My point Glenn is that as much as you can say why even list a card for sale if you’re not looking to sell? The same response can be on the other side of the fence from the seller saying why even reach out to me and offer to buy something if the offer isn’t going to be a serious offer.

As to tougher back HOF players being a fad that’s all in the eye of the collector and I guess the market will decided that should I decide to sell.

Actually John, you stopped the negotiations as claiming "you really don't need to sell" so that's when the door shut. You're more than welcome to post whatever you want, but the fact remains that you really weren't serious about selling (please at least admit to that) which dictated my offers. I didn't become a successful business owner by playing the "games". There's a reason you still have it and that's all that really needs to be discussed here.

As other sellers here whom I've dealt with will attest, I have no problem handing out money for what I want, but when I'm met with "I do have it, but I'm not really in any hurry to sell" I already know it's gonna be a waste of time as not matter what, the offer is never gonna be "good enough", it's the case in almost all business aspects.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Actually John, you stopped the negotiations as claiming "you really don't need to sell" so that's when the door shut. You're more than welcome to post whatever you want, but the fact remains that you really weren't serious about selling (please at least admit to that) which dictated my offers. I didn't become a successful business owner by playing the "games". There's a reason you still have it and that's all that really needs to be discussed here.

As other sellers here whom I've dealt with will attest, I have no problem handing out money for what I want, but when I'm met with "I do have it, but I'm not really in any hurry to sell" I already know it's gonna be a waste of time as not matter what, the offer is never gonna be "good enough", it's the case in almost all business aspects.

Glenn the reason I still have the card is you offered $4500 dollars for a card that I bought two years ago for $4700. I wasn’t interested in selling it to you at your offer that doesn’t make me unreasonable or make the card not for sale.

Cheers,

John

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Glenn the reason I still have the card is you offered $4500 dollars for a card that I bought two years ago for $4700. I wasn’t interested in selling it to you at your offer that doesn’t make me unreasonable or make the card not for sale.

Cheers,

John

John you know damn well my ceiling would have been higher if I felt you honestly were ready to move on it. We can always revisit it.

[HRBAKER]

To me most of the sellers we are talking about don't care if they sell the cards. Actually to call them sellers is a misnomer. They are listers looking for a certain level of return, they don't care if you and I think it is realistic. They can wait for the price they want, or they can put their money in a CD and earn a half percent. The other part is eBay had made it so operationally easy to be this type of lister as well as financially attractive there really is no downside other than pissing a few folks off. And that obviously doesn't bother them. Just move on.

Now, out and out lying in a description - another matter entirely.