Marijuana laws- O/T

[Leon]

Originally Posted by SmokyBurgess

Scene at a McDonalds in 2 years:

" I'll take a McChicken biscuit, sweet tea, and a reefer"

The McJoint....new to the dollar menu.

(sigh) sad to see our country sliding down so fast...anything goes it seems.

I am truly curious why any informed and intelligent person would feel this way? Please help everyone else (here) understand your thinking. It's intriguing.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am truly curious why any informed and intelligent person would feel this way? Please help everyone else (here) understand your thinking. It's intriguing.

Thanks, I want to understand as well.

I have heard the argument many times that it would take jobs from the enforcers, but there's a way to change that- the enforcers could be trained to regulate, farm, sell, tax, and transport, amongst other things.They could keep their payscale and benefits, and stay employed by the same agencies. The money saved from the failed war on drugs could be used to keep anyone from losing their jobs.

"If I ruled the World"........

Sincerely, Clayton

[barrysloate]

For those who feel legalizing marijuana would send the country into a downward spiral...it's been illegal for a very long time, but if you want to buy some you can find it pretty much anywhere at any time, in any part of the country. It's as ubiquitous as beer. So making it illegal hasn't kept it out of circulation. But making it legal will keep small time users out of prison, will put violent dealers out of business, could add tax revenue to the economy, and could make for a very valuable cash crop. Whatever negative effects pot has, and even diehards will admit there are some, they've been going on for as long as I can remember (assuming I can remember anything anymore from smoking so much pot...)

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

For those who feel legalizing marijuana would send the country into a downward spiral...it's been illegal for a very long time, but if you want to buy some you can find it pretty much anywhere at any time, in any part of the country. It's as ubiquitous as beer. So making it illegal hasn't kept it out of circulation. But making it legal will keep small time users out of prison, will put violent dealers out of business, could add tax revenue to the economy, and could make for a very valuable cash crop. Whatever negative effects pot has, and even diehards will admit there are some, they've been going on for as long as I can remember (assuming I can remember anything anymore from smoking so much pot...)

Great post Barry +1

You make great points, thank you.

Sincerely, Clayton

[D. Bergin]

I've never smoked it, or anything else.......and never will. The smell actually makes me nauseous. Ironic considering what it's often used for.

That said, I'm in favor of legalization. I've been around it plenty in my life, and believe me when I say, pot heads are far less annoying to me then drunks.

The problems caused by the prohibition of it, seem to far out-weigh the problems of legality.

As long as it's done in the privacy of ones home. I also don't want to make it ok to openly use while out in public. It should have the same limitations they have on tobacco in several states, but a bit stricter.........in consideration of people who DON'T smoke.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Thanks, I want to understand as well.

I have heard the argument many times that it would take jobs from the enforcers, but there's a way to change that- the enforcers could be trained to regulate, farm, sell, tax, and transport, amongst other things.They could keep their payscale and benefits, and stay employed by the same agencies. The money saved from the failed war on drugs could be used to keep anyone from losing their jobs.

"If I ruled the World"........

Sincerely, Clayton

tahe jobs from enforcers? no one enforces this, at least not in new york anyway. Anyone who wants it can easly get it anyway , may as well have the taxes from it help pay out way out of debt

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

tahe jobs from enforcers? no one enforces this, at least not in new york anyway. Anyone who wants it can easly get it anyway , may as well have the taxes from it help pay out way out of debt

I didn't word it right I guess.

Sincerely, Clayton

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by SmokyBurgess

(sigh) sad to see our country sliding down so fast...anything goes it seems.

Originally Posted by Leon

I am truly curious why any informed and intelligent person would feel this way? Please help everyone else (here) understand your thinking. It's intriguing.

I agree that it is a sign of sliding (I don't see the McDonald's thing happening since they aren't selling liquor or cigarettes).

Without getting into the debate too much (it isn't what I come to this site for) I will explain my side.

My thinking is when you talk about a sliding down you are talking about the logic that controls the actions of the people making the decision.

Every time someone says they SHOULD legalize it their arguments are one of two (or both):
1: It isn't worse than Alcohol or Tobacco
2: It will raise revenue by taxes and/or cutting down on law enforcement

So both arguments don't actually demonstrate how the actual element being legalized would be helpful to the persons in the society that use it. Yet it just talks about how society as a whole can benefit by those who don't have the willpower to stay away from it.

In the first argument, saying that it isn't worse is the wrong way to look at it. If you think things that are legal are worse than things not illegal, than maybe it would be better to look at making the legal things illegal not vice versa. Marijuana does have health concerns similar to those who smoke, it doesn't have the nicotine, but it has more tar production (http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/effects.-Lya.htm).

The second case is just greed over acting logic. We could cut out law enforcement and increase tax if we legalized murder-for-hire also. Yes I know that is an extreme analogy, but it is just an analogy to point out the logic of the argument. If someone is caught with some they are still law breakers non the less. They knew the law, but decided to break it. So if people have a careless outlook on the law for this one subject that says a lot about their ideas of being above the law in other areas as well.

I am going to go back to looking at photos of cards now.

...side note: For those that say it is easy to obtain, it depends on the company you keep. I have no clue where to obtain any. I don't know anyone who openly has that information.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I agree that it is a sign of sliding (I don't see the McDonald's thing happening since they aren't selling liquor or cigarettes).

Without getting into the debate too much (it isn't what I come to this site for) I will explain my side.

My thinking is when you talk about a sliding down you are talking about the logic that controls the actions of the people making the decision.

Every time someone says they SHOULD legalize it their arguments are one of two (or both):
1: It isn't worse than Alcohol or Tobacco
2: It will raise revenue by taxes and/or cutting down on law enforcement

So both arguments don't actually demonstrate how the actual element being legalized would be helpful to the persons in the society that use it. Yet it just talks about how society as a whole can benefit by those who don't have the willpower to stay away from it.

In the first argument, saying that it isn't worse is the wrong way to look at it. If you think things that are legal are worse than things not illegal, than maybe it would be better to look at making the legal things illegal not vice versa. Marijuana does have health concerns similar to those who smoke, it doesn't have the nicotine, but it has more tar production (http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/effects.-Lya.htm).

The second case is just greed over acting logic. We could cut out law enforcement and increase tax if we legalized murder-for-hire also. Yes I know that is an extreme analogy, but it is just an analogy to point out the logic of the argument. If someone is caught with some they are still law breakers non the less. They knew the law, but decided to break it. So if people have a careless outlook on the law for this one subject that says a lot about their ideas of being above the law in other areas as well.

I am going to go back to looking at photos of cards now.

...side note: For those that say it is easy to obtain, it depends on the company you keep. I have no clue where to obtain any. I don't know anyone who openly has that information.

Maybe is actually says more about "The Law", then people who do, or do not, think they are above the law.

When it comes down to it, you can conceivably create a law based on any particular lawmakers or segment of the society's pet peeve. In some areas of the world, this is a very common occurrence, sometimes with harrowing consequences.

Sometimes, as they say......."The Law is an Ass".

Many laws are repealed on a regular basis, because they are no longer relevant with our present society...........and you can still google a large number of simply ridiculous laws that are still on the books in many states, but usually never enforced.

It's a constantly evolving thing. Has nothing to do with the sliding of society IMO.

[D. Bergin]

When they first banned hemp production, because of pressure from the lumber industry, I don't think that was a step forward for society, so it's hard to argue the slide back down to me.

[teetwoohsix]

I appreciate where you are coming from Andy, many people feel the way you do.

The alchohol thing. There is no refuting the fact that alchohol has caused numerous hardships on whole communities, which is why they wanted to prohibit it back in the 20's. The people kept drinking and it created a black market, which helped create organized crime. The people were going to drink regardless, and they did. They realized they(the government) would cut the organized crime back out of the picture, regulate it, tax it, and give people the right to decide for themselves if they wanted to drink or not.

I don't drink, but I like the fact that I can if I want to. It doesn't bother me that others drink, hell, I'll buy someone a drink

If marijuana is not as destructive to society as something that is, like alchohol, why is everyone so against it being legal to adults who choose to use it?

I think if the voters in a state vote by majority to legalize it, the states voice should be recognized and let the state work out the details. Our economy could benefit from the tax dollars, which could be put into a multitude of things, like schools, hospitals, police and fire departments, transportation- which would benefit the community as a whole.

It has nothing to do with greed, it has everything to do with being realistic about people wanting the right to do it legally. Adults, with laws similar to DUI, and not using it in a public place (being respectful to the community).

Keeping it illeagal keeps creating criminals out of every day ordinary people. It also keeps giving the drug cartels just another thing to smuggle into the country to get rich off of. I guess I could go on and on, I just feel it's hypocritical to say alchohol is ok but marijuana is scheduled up there with cocaine and heroin (I know you didn't say that Andy, I'm just saying in general).

Thanks for listening,

Sincerely, Clayton

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

When they first banned hemp production, because of pressure from the lumber industry, I don't think that was a step forward for society, so it's hard to argue the slide back down to me.

It was making strides towards legalization in the 30's. However they further cracked down on it thanks to political pressure from Du Pont, because eliminating hemp, left very little competition for Nylon..

[vintagetoppsguy]

I never understood the point of getting high...or drunk for that matter. If people's lives are so pathetic that they have to alter their state of mind to escape reality, that really does say a lot about the decline of America.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I never understood the point of getting high...or drunk for that matter. If people's lives are so pathetic that they have to alter their state of mind to escape reality, that really does say a lot about the decline of America.

Well, I can't explain for other people, I have no desire to do either- but I do know that people legitimately use it as medicine. It does help sick people, with many different ailments.

Others use it recreationally, like they do alchohol. And, some people's lives may be that bad- I don't know.

Sincerely, Clayton

[travrosty]

.....

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I never understood the point of getting high...or drunk for that matter. If people's lives are so pathetic that they have to alter their state of mind to escape reality, that really does say a lot about the decline of America.

james, i agree. good point, i am against legalizing pot, we don't need it. i am high on life.

[SmokyBurgess]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am truly curious why any informed and intelligent person would feel this way? Please help everyone else (here) understand your thinking. It's intriguing.

Well, the McDonalds thing was a feeble attempt at satire. Never a serious thought.

I base my other observations on 1 Corinthians 6:20.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by SmokyBurgess

Well, the McDonalds thing was a feeble attempt at satire. Never a serious thought.

I base my other observations on 1 Corinthians 6:20.

I am Jewish- side out.

Nothing I have read here about keeping it illegal, to me, makes any sense at all. Go figure. For those that don't want it to be legal, that is your right. And as a democracy we will continue to revise laws as to what most people want, thank God and Bless America. Now back to watching "Reefer Madness".

[barrysloate]

I understand there are a bunch of people who don't like any aspect of making pot legal, and although I support legalization I know where they are coming from. It's not health food, and some people do use it as a crutch.

But one thing to consider is that we've had a war on drugs for decades now, and by any measure it's been an absolute failure. There are more illegal drugs around than there were before the war started. We can't stop the flow into the country, we can't stop people from using them if they want to, and it's a multi-billion dollar illegal business.

Now I'm not suggesting we legalize heroin or cocaine. That would simply kill thousands of people and would be a terrible idea. But legalizing marijuana, while maybe not a perfect solution, may in fact do more good than harm. I know on the surface that might sound crazy, but those who support the legalization do actually believe that. Of course, there will always be detractors and there's no question it will always be a hot button issue.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I understand there are a bunch of people who don't like any aspect of making pot legal, and although I support legalization I know where they are coming from. It's not health food, and some people do use it as a crutch.

But one thing to consider is that we've had a war on drugs for decades now, and by any measure it's been an absolute failure. There are more illegal drugs around than there were before the war started. We can't stop the flow into the country, we can't stop people from using them if they want to, and it's a multi-billion dollar illegal business.

Now I'm not suggesting we legalize heroin or cocaine. That would simply kill thousands of people and would be a terrible idea. But legalizing marijuana, while maybe not a perfect solution, may in fact do more good than harm. I know on the surface that might sound crazy, but those who support the legalization do actually believe that. Of course, there will always be detractors and there's no question it will always be a hot button issue.

+1 Well said again Barry

Steve, I appreciate your well written response, as well as your opinion; the laws you cited on the eastcoast are ridiculous, in my opinion.

And, you are right;I was wrong when I said prohibition created organized crime. But in 1925 Al Capone's gang was pulling in $70,000,000.00 a year from bootleg booze, gambling, and prostitution......and that was in 1925 !!!

Athlete's, with the money they get paid, are expected to be drug free. Plus, kids look up to them as role models; they are held to a higher standard. But, they can still enjoy alchohol, right? I'll never be convinced that marijuana is worse than alchohol. Just look at the statistics, how many deaths per year are attributed to each.

There will always be professions where you can not do the job while under the influence of anything....bus drivers, for example. You couldn't even come to work if you'd had a drink in the last 8 hours. Jobs where people's lives are in your hands.....

I just believe in freedom, that's what it boils down to for me.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Runscott]

Some people work hard and need much-deserved distractions that others might not approve of. Denying an adult a cold beer after a hard day of work should have always been a crime, in my opinion. And if that same person would instead prefer to light up a fatty, then I'll lift my beer while he tokes.

You've got your right to disagree, and you get the same number of votes that I get. Nothing could be more fair.

[attellfan4life]

Can we please make sure my son does not see this thread. I just last month was in the school office cause they found him with his binder and in it had 35 reason this was good for him to smoke. Told him I wish he put this much thought in his school work and not this topic. lol

I too have no problem on it being legal as long as it is an age of at least 18.

[SmokyBurgess]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am Jewish- side out.

Nothing I have read here about keeping it illegal, to me, makes any sense at all. Go figure. For those that don't want it to be legal, that is your right. And as a democracy we will continue to revise laws as to what most people want, thank God and Bless America. Now back to watching "Reefer Madness".

My dear Jewish friend Leon,
The O.T. has many warnings about things that impair (mostly drink), but marijuana could certain be substituted very easily.
I can see why the world Biblical view would be at odds with the secular views and I think that is reflected on this post. Not surprising really.
It's never "side out" until your final whistle blows.

[teetwoohsix]

Genesis 1:11
Genesis 1:12
Genesis 1:29

Sincerely, Clayton

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by SmokyBurgess

The O.T. has many warnings about things that impair (mostly drink), but marijuana could certain be substituted very easily.
I can see why the world Biblical view would be at odds with the secular views and I think that is reflected on this post. Not surprising really.

Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. I stand with you.

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Genesis 1:11
Genesis 1:12
Genesis 1:29

Sincerely, Clayton

Taking your insinuations that referencing these verses out of context is supposed to mean that God gave us "grass" for our pleasure, I would respond that the vegetation that this thread refers to most likely began in Genesis 3:18 instead.

[packs]

Should be legal. Let's get people out of jail who don't belong, save billions on the taxes we all pay to take care of them, and let's start being a capitalist society again.

The only reason its even illegal is because of that greedy dope Hearst. Seems silly to continue this charade 80 plus years later. It's not ruining anyone's life but the lives the justice system has ruined by labeling them criminals.

Also, I have a medical need and prescription for it here in California. But if I were to take a drug test and fail I could legally be fired and barred from collecting unemployment, even though a medical doctor has prescribed the medication. I can take all the opiates and synthetic heroin I want legally with a prescription and never get fired. But not marijuana? Please.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. I stand with you.



Taking your insinuations that referencing these verses out of context is supposed to mean that God gave us "grass" for our pleasure, I would respond that the vegetation that this thread refers to most likely began in Genesis 3:18 instead.

It depends on how you read it. And, I never said God gave us "grass" for our pleasure. So, I don't think I took anything out of context. "Seed bearing plant, seed bearing herb...." I guess everyone is free to determine what that means for themselves, right?

Sincerely, Clayton

[Leon]

Originally Posted by SmokyBurgess

My dear Jewish friend Leon,
The O.T. has many warnings about things that impair (mostly drink), but marijuana could certain be substituted very easily.
I can see why the world Biblical view would be at odds with the secular views and I think that is reflected on this post. Not surprising really.
It's never "side out" until your final whistle blows.

Comprehension is a dying trend. Side out merely means your turn. Had I said "game over" then your statement would ring true. As I said above, we are in America and eventually what the masses want is what we will do. There is no reasonable answer that I have seen or heard to not legalize given the legality of alcohol, tobacco etc....There are many, many reasons to legalize it and only a few reasons not to. I am not advocating the use of it only the legalization, which makes complete sense to most Americans. I believe it is inevitable and a good thing. God Bless America.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Leon

Comprehension is a dying trend. Side out merely means your turn. Had I said "game over" then your statement would ring true. As I said above, we are in America and eventually what the masses want is what we will do. There is no reasonable answer that I have seen or heard to not legalize given the legality of alcohol, tobacco etc....There are many, many reasons to legalize it and only a few reasons not to. I am not advocating the use of it only the legalization, which makes complete sense to most Americans. I believe it is inevitable and a good thing. God Bless America.

+1

I've enjoyed having a rational discussion about this topic, when we are constantly hearing about a "fiscal cliff" and "job creation" and things of such, I can't help but wonder why we as a nation can't find a middle ground. This is one of those topics that I feel , if done properly, could not only help our economy, create jobs, and at least put a dent in the enormous debt that will not only continue us down this spiral, but also leave too big of a burden on the children (tomorrows future). By no means am I (like Leon) advocating the use of it, but just hoping common sense will begin to make sense at some point.

We must close the divide in this country to work out all of the problems-there has to be a middle ground.

If you care to, read what these people have to say: http://www.leap.cc/

From good people who have been on the front lines of the "war on drugs".

Sincerely, Clayton

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

+1

I've enjoyed having a rational discussion about this topic, when we are constantly hearing about a "fiscal cliff" and "job creation" and things of such, I can't help but wonder why we as a nation can't find a middle ground. This is one of those topics that I feel , if done properly, could not only help our economy, create jobs, and at least put a dent in the enormous debt that will not only continue us down this spiral, but also leave too big of a burden on the children (tomorrows future). By no means am I (like Leon) advocating the use of it, but just hoping common sense will begin to make sense at some point.

We must close the divide in this country to work out all of the problems-there has to be a middle ground.

If you care to, read what these people have to say: http://www.leap.cc/

From good people who have been on the front lines of the "war on drugs".

Sincerely, Clayton

+1

While everyone's looking at job "creation". Why not take a look at job "legitimization" as well. A good place to start would be the strip-clubs. Our government manages to regulate the hell out of the clubs and dancers, based on what they feel are morals, but somehow the dancers themselves have managed to not be taxed, as well as a large portion of these clubs cash income(dancer fees, door charges....) Dancers are "technically" subcontractors instead of employees, which makes it easier for them to hide from the system. Rather than focusing on regulating morals, why not regulate the clubs a little more, so that we can legitimatize these jobs and tax them. Not only will these people begin to show as employed, but it will take away that loophole that has allowed them to both, have jobs, while being able to milk the welfare system...

Now, I'm not saying all dancers are milking the system, but there's definitely a large percentage that is doing so..

[cubsfan-budman]

A parallel topic that came up earlier is how it would be tested for, in the case of DUI/DWI situations, or workplace injury, etc.

As it is now (from what I understand) is that if you're in a workplace accident, they can drug test you and if they find that you've got THC in your system, you're screwed...but the test that they use will detect pot smoked days or weeks earlier. So, while you may not be "under the influence" at the time, you'd still have the detectable residue of your actions days or weeks prior. Alcohol is out of your system in 12 or so hour's time, so the tests of your inebriation are more reliable.

I don't know if there are tests that allow someone to test for inebriation from pot. This seems like something that *I* would want straightened out before I decided to recreationally smoke (or for medical reasons, for that matter). The threat of being punished for "being under the influence" of pot that I smoked 2 weeks ago would be deterrent enough for me.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

A parallel topic that came up earlier is how it would be tested for, in the case of DUI/DWI situations, or workplace injury, etc.

As it is now (from what I understand) is that if you're in a workplace accident, they can drug test you and if they find that you've got THC in your system, you're screwed...but the test that they use will detect pot smoked days or weeks earlier. So, while you may not be "under the influence" at the time, you'd still have the detectable residue of your actions days or weeks prior. Alcohol is out of your system in 12 or so hour's time, so the tests of your inebriation are more reliable.

I don't know if there are tests that allow someone to test for inebriation from pot. This seems like something that *I* would want straightened out before I decided to recreationally smoke (or for medical reasons, for that matter). The threat of being punished for "being under the influence" of pot that I smoked 2 weeks ago would be deterrent enough for me.

Very good points made. And with the legalization would (probably) come millions of dollars for research. I am extremely confident that urine, hair follicle or other tests could be invented to test the THC in one's system and how long it has been there. No, this is not perfect but what we have been doing is a witch hunt, a drain on resources and quite honestly, imho, just plain stupid. It is time for a change, especially when each of the last several presidents have admitted to doing it (though maybe one of them didn't inhale ).