OT: Colorado shooting

[Matthew H]

Thank you for the offer, Scott. I will be contacting you when I run into my next hurdle. BTW, injectable meds that are effective for a month is the latest thing, and somewhat promising to me.

Peter, IMO, schizophrenia should show up in a ct scan, otherwise, if it were up to me, the insanity plea shouldn't be allowed for people just having a bad day.

Leon, you raise a valid argument, if it turns out there is something wrong with this guy, the arms dealer should be prosecuted as well... It doesn't take a psychologist to see.

Originally Posted by Runscott

The Thorazine shuffle? Do you even know what Thorazine is for? It's used to treat Schizophrenia, which is a mental illness.

Uh, Runscott, I am a Certified Nurses Assistant. Yes, I know what thorazine is used for. Also, a punk rock fan and the song, "thorazine shuffle", has been covered by everyone from the Sex Pistols to Government Mule. My words may have been poorly chosen, my point was he seemed to be heavily medicated in court. I agree with your general premise, mental illness is often neglected or ignored by those around sometimes with tragic consequences.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

Uh, Runscott, I am a Certified Nurses Assistant. Yes, I know what thorazine is used for. Also, a punk rock fan and the song, "thorazine shuffle", has been covered by everyone from the Sex Pistols to Government Mule. My words may have been poorly chosen, my point was he seemed to be heavily medicated in court. I agree with your general premise, mental illness is often neglected or ignored by those around sometimes with tragic consequences.

There was no way of me knowing that. I responded to your words, which is what I always try to do.

Edited to add: To me, if he was heavily medicated, this would be an indication that he was manic and had to be sedated for safety reasons. Is it true that people are given antipsychotics simply to make them look insane? I have never heard of that.

Originally Posted by Runscott

Is it true that people are given antipsychotics simply to make them look insane? I have never heard of that.

No. Typically a 72 hour mental health evaluation and civil commitment hearing are necessary to medicate someone involuntarily. He would not be given psychotropics for the sake of appearance by any responsible health professional. It would be necessary only if he was a danger to himself or others, which in this case is a statement of the obvious.

My guess is he was evaluated by mental health officials over the weekend prior to his arraignment on Monday, and it was deemed necessary to pacify him. Thorazine is a powerful, older, antipsychotic and rarely used because of its side effects, more likely he was sedated with haldol. Seeing the suspect in court he did exhibit some symptoms of psychotropics including heavy eyelids, dizziness (head bobbing), enlarged pupils, and shuffling (though that may be from the leg irons).

[nolemmings]

In Arizona you don't even need a permit. Why didn't anyone take down Jared Loughner, surely people in that large Arizona crowd had guns. My supposition -- when it happens that fast, it's a lot easier to react in theory than in practice.

Peter, there was indeed a young man at the Tucson shooting who was armed and I believe he even drew his weapon coming out of the Safeway. He was asked why he didn't fire and he stated something to the effect that the chaos and speed at which events were happening made him at first uncertain of his target and then concerned that he might hit others. I don't want to put words in his mouth so I am sure you can get better info through googling, but I remember seeing his TV interview and that was the gist of what I recall. I know I was glad he didn't fire given the way he described the scene, and I remember that the topic of an armed crowd was discussed, with law enforcement commenting how that scenario would almost certainly have made things worse.

Edited to add: the crowd was not that large, it was just a meet and greet outside of a grocery store on a Saturday morning, and I do not believe it was even all that widely publicized

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

No. Typically a 72 hour mental health evaluation and civil commitment hearing are necessary to medicate someone involuntarily. He would not be given psychotropics for the sake of appearance by any responsible health professional. It would be necessary only if he was a danger to himself or others, which in this case is a statement of the obvious.

My guess is he was evaluated by mental health officials over the weekend prior to his arraignment on Monday, and it was deemed necessary to pacify him. Thorazine is a powerful, older, antipsychotic and rarely used because of its side effects, more likely he was sedated with haldol. Seeing the suspect in court he did exhibit some symptoms of psychotropics including heavy eyelids, dizziness (head bobbing), enlarged pupils, and shuffling (though that may be from the leg irons).

It was a rhetorical question, based on your insinuation that he was given thorazine in order to prepare for an insanity plea, which might not be an obviously ridiculous statement to some on this board.

I hate threads like this, as they just create angst for everyone - I am certain that I should have never posted, but feel compelled to respond to the resulting comments. This guy killed a bunch of people and hundreds of relatives and friends are grieving - my heart goes out to them. It also goes out to the family of the perpetrator. I understand the gun control debate, but some of the comments about mental illness are just mind-numbing. They make it clear what a huge road we have ahead of us if we are going to address the problem of mental illness in any meaningful way.

[zljones]

The big problem in our country is that people and the media want to dig into the psychology of these killers, not only that there is analysis in detail on the news and newspapers and people talking about the killer and what made him tick and his private life. Everyone wants to know what he was like, What are his interests? What is his mental illness? Why did he kill so many with out remorse?
Because our society showers so much attention on these killers, then other sickos will kill as well because they want to be heard. These sickos like to have their faces on the news, they like people to want to learn about them. They crave the attention. These are more than likely angry individuals that want to lash out and show the world what they are all about. They lead insignificant lives and are starving for attention. Sadly our society keeps on feeding into this stuff and keeps wanting to learn more about it. If we show eagerness that we want to learn about these killers, more of them will emerge to take innocent lives. I for one have no interest on what made this guy shoot everyone, I just want to see him brought to justice. If we as a society did not pay so much attention to all these sick killers, then maybe there would be less situations like this.
There is a reason why many University Officials do not want to talk about this and it's because they don't want to feed the fire. Ever since our society has paid attention to serial killers and shooters, there has been a rise in these type of killings.

[packs]

Been hearing a lot of talk about gun control. I don't think it would have impacted what happened. The guy bought all of his weapons legally and had no criminal history at all. Even with the strictest gun control laws, he still would have been able to purchase the weapons.

Bottom line is if people are going to kill other people the law isn't standing in their way. Murder is illegal and it happens every day. You can't control people with rules.

[teetwoohsix]

My condolences to the victims and their families, this is a senseless tragedy that no human being should ever have to experience.

God Bless America. Guns now, free speech later?

Sincerely, Clayton

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by zljones

The big problem in our country is that people and the media want to dig into the psychology of these killers, not only that there is analysis in detail on the news and newspapers and people talking about the killer and what made him tick and his private life. Everyone wants to know what he was like, What are his interests? What is his mental illness? Why did he kill so many with out remorse?
Because our society showers so much attention on these killers, then other sickos will kill as well because they want to be heard. These sickos like to have their faces on the news, they like people to want to learn about them. They crave the attention. These are more than likely angry individuals that want to lash out and show the world what they are all about. They lead insignificant lives and are starving for attention. Sadly our society keeps on feeding into this stuff and keeps wanting to learn more about it. If we show eagerness that we want to learn about these killers, more of them will emerge to take innocent lives. I for one have no interest on what made this guy shoot everyone, I just want to see him brought to justice. If we as a society did not pay so much attention to all these sick killers, then maybe there would be less situations like this.
There is a reason why many University Officials do not want to talk about this and it's because they don't want to feed the fire. Ever since our society has paid attention to serial killers and shooters, there has been a rise in these type of killings.

Wow, now I finally understand. Thanks Zack!

Anyone want to form a posse?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Thank you for the offer, Scott. I will be contacting you when I run into my next hurdle. BTW, injectable meds that are effective for a month is the latest thing, and somewhat promising to me.

Peter, IMO, schizophrenia should show up in a ct scan, otherwise, if it were up to me, the insanity plea shouldn't be allowed for people just having a bad day.

Leon, you raise a valid argument, if it turns out there is something wrong with this guy, the arms dealer should be prosecuted as well... It doesn't take a psychologist to see.

There is a guy down in Tacoma who will do brain scans that show the damaged areas very clearly - same guy who did this for NFL players who had suffered brain trauma. I know someone who got one done for their schizophrenic son and showed it to him - that was how he got the insight to realize he had a damaged brain and needed to take meds, so it will definitely show the damage of a mental break.

I'm pretty sure this is the guy: http://www.amenclinics.com/?p=5823&o...ess&Itemid=204

[vintagetoppsguy]

Medications, brain scans, psych exams, etc are one way to deal with loons; arming yourself and being prepared is another. I choose the latter and apparently so do a lot of other folks in Colorado:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/24...t-since-movie/

[Peter_Spaeth]

In Arizona you don't even need a permit. Why didn't anyone take down Jared Loughner, surely people in that large Arizona crowd had guns. My supposition -- when it happens that fast, it's a lot easier to react in theory than in practice.

[brickyardkennedy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In Arizona you don't even need a permit. Why didn't anyone take down Jared Loughner, surely people in that large Arizona crowd had guns. My supposition -- when it happens that fast, it's a lot easier to react in theory than in practice.

When maybe a dozen people in a theater start pulling guns, who do you shoot? How do you discern the good guys from the potential accomplices? Do you shoot at the guy already firing or at the guy next to you waving a gun around, who may put a couple of rounds in you? Unrealistic to believe that, with a dozen or two guns going off, in such a chaotic situation, that even more innocent people wouldn't be killed or injured by the wanna be good guys. Even trained, disciplined cops, have shot one another in gun battles with criminals or have shot undercover cops because they couldn't tell they were one of their own.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Well said, Bob. To expand on that, yes, Peter, Arizona does have an open carry law. However, that law does not apply to all places. I'm guessing that a political event is one of those places in which the open carry law doesn't apply. I may be wrong on that and somebody can take the time to look it up if they feel they need to prove me wrong, but it's just a guess.

[barrysloate]

It doesn't surprise me that in the wake of this incident, some are calling for stricter gun laws, and others suggest more Americans should go out and get guns. It's our great divide.

And as Bob just pointed out, can you picture a pitch black movie theatre where dozens of spectators are armed, and all start shooting at who they think is the bad guy, without really being able to see clearly, and with kids and adults running in all directions...not to mention the stress each of them is dealing with under such horrific conditions. I don't know what the answer is, but that hardly looks like a great choice.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Medications, brain scans, psych exams, etc are one way to deal with loons; arming yourself and being prepared is another. I choose the latter and apparently so do a lot of other folks in Colorado:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/24...t-since-movie/

Yes, many of the folks in South Central LA feel the same way. Most of the gang related homicide cases end up manslaughter due to there being no real proof as to who was just defending themselves... Too bad for the kids that get caught in the crossfire. Maybe they should be armed too. I totally agree with "a lot of other folks in Colorado" We need more guns. If people had guns that night they could have shot back... He did have body armor though, so the next time you bring your family out to the movies, make sure everyone has their gun and body armor on. There, problem solved.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Medications, brain scans, psych exams, etc are one way to deal with loons; arming yourself and being prepared is another. I choose the latter and apparently so do a lot of other folks in Colorado:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/24...t-since-movie/

Preserved to remind me of the public mentality toward "dealing with loons". Thanks for your insight David.