OT: Colorado shooting

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The notion of relying on psychiatrists and judges to make correct decisions about people's medication status is frightening. And it isn't just schizophrenia. Do we force depressed people to take anti-depressants? Do we keep forcing kids to take ritalin and the like over their parents' objections? Where does Big Brother's reach stop?

You are right. But given the HIPPA laws, the only person who is allowed to make the decision is the mentally ill person - the person who is not in their right mind and who is the least capable of making the decision.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You are right. But given the HIPPA laws, the only person who is allowed to make the decision is the mentally ill person - the person who is not in their right mind and who is the least capable of making the decision.

I have a cousin in law who passed away recently and he was a full blown schizophrenic. When anyone was around him, on his meds or not, they knew he was a bit off. I am sure there are different degrees of it but I wouldn't buy this shooter having it. If someone has schizophrenia, at least in my experiences, you know it. This guy was functioning in society fine and was not on medication. Sorry, in this case I am just not buying it (nor has that been a defense yet). I also think his demeanor in court today was a pre-plan for the start of an insanity plea. As I said on the phone yesterday, we really have to look at each individual situation. If I were the judge I would probably, if there were a way, let the victim's families decide his fate. (pipe dream, I know)

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have a cousin in law who passed away recently and he was a full blown schizophrenic. When anyone was around him, on his meds or not, they know he was a bit off. I am sure there are different degrees of it but I wouldn't buy this shooter having it. If someone has schizophrenia, at least in my experiences, you know it. This guy was functioning in society fine and was not on medication. Sorry, in this case I am just not buying it (nor has that been a defense yet). I also think his demeanor in court today was a pre-plan for the start of an insanity plea. As I said on the phone yesterday, we really have to look at each individual situation. If I were the judge I would probably, if there were a way, let the victim's families decide his fate. (pipe dream, I know)

I'll reserve an execution sentence until I know more facts, but I very much appreciate our talk the other day and I tend to agree that he probably isn't mentally ill, for the same reason you gave.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Legal systems have always struggled with the definition of insanity as a defense. Does it mean the inability to tell right from wrong? Or does it mean the inability to control one's actions? Or something else? I think for most people, including myself, it's hard to believe someone who for months carefully plans a crime is not "sane" by any definition. On the other hand, if he truly believed he was The Joker, well, I don't know.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Legal systems have always struggled with the definition of insanity as a defense. Does it mean the inability to tell right from wrong? Or does it mean the inability to control one's actions? Or something else? I think for most people, including myself, it's hard to believe someone who for months carefully plans a crime is not "sane" by any definition. On the other hand, if he truly believed he was The Joker, well, I don't know.

I think most people struggle with the term 'insane', as well. To me, anyone who commits the premeditated murder of people he doesn't even know, must be 'insane' on some level. Tough call (or should be).

Interesting that you brought up "the inability to control one's actions". Antipsychotics can be used to bring a manic patient down to a state where they can fake sanity well enough to get through a competency evaluation so that they can testify in their own behalf. Despite this, they are still mentally ill, and once off their meds are likely to re-enter their psychotic state.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Scott, to me premeditation and planning is more consistent with being evil (knowing right from wrong but choosing to do wrong) than insane. But of course it's a case by case inquiry, in an imperfect world, where ultimately people make that judgment based on conflicting testimony of paid psychiatrists, and of course their common sense.

[Matthew H]

Thank you for the offer, Scott. I will be contacting you when I run into my next hurdle. BTW, injectable meds that are effective for a month is the latest thing, and somewhat promising to me.

Peter, IMO, schizophrenia should show up in a ct scan, otherwise, if it were up to me, the insanity plea shouldn't be allowed for people just having a bad day.

Leon, you raise a valid argument, if it turns out there is something wrong with this guy, the arms dealer should be prosecuted as well... It doesn't take a psychologist to see.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott, to me premeditation and planning is more consistent with being evil (knowing right from wrong but choosing to do wrong) than insane. But of course it's a case by case inquiry, in an imperfect world, where ultimately people make that judgment based on conflicting testimony of paid psychiatrists, and of course their common sense.

I think you are probably right, but it seems odd that there was no prior indication of evil. Many people don't realize that a mental break does not necessarily affect one's ability to premeditate and plan, and in many cases cognitive abilities improve - many people do some of their best work while in a manic state.

The judgement made by people using their 'common sense' is really what would be of concern to me, as most people really don't understand mental illness. Another curiosity is that in situations where there is a choice, the mentally ill will often ask for a jury trial, trusting the 'common sense' of such jurors over a judge, who they perceive as being the enemy, when in fact the judge (especially in mental health court) will have far more insight into their condition.

(Edited to remove possibly offensive statement)