OT: Colorado shooting

This is a horrible tragedy. I am not for vigilante justice, but Colorado has only executed one person since 1976 (Method of execution in Colorado is lethal injection). In comparison, Texas has executed 483 since 1976. Truly hope the bereaved families of those killed or wounded in this senseless act find some measure of justice, but I have my doubts.

I agree with above posts, definitely looked as though the accused was doing the Thorazine shuffle in his court appearance this AM. Probably already laying the groundwork for an insanity defense.

I feel no sympathy for this man.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

I agree with above posts, definitely looked as though the accused was doing the Thorazine shuffle in his court appearance this AM. Probably already laying the groundwork for an insanity defense.

I feel no sympathy for this man.

The Thorazine shuffle? Do you even know what Thorazine is for? It's used to treat Schizophrenia, which is a mental illness. If this man was in the middle of his first manic break as a schizophrenic, then he's mentally ill and was not acting with his own mind. First mental breaks normally occur for schizophrenic men in their 20's, and they are generally exceptionally intelligent and creative people, and the illness manifests itself as anger. Prior to the attack, there might have been some eccentric behavior, but no family wants to think their son is mentally ill, so it gets ignored. When the person comes down from the break (which might not even happen with a schizophrenic), they are generally horrified at what they have done.

Basically, if he's mentally ill, executing him is not going to give the family members any sense of justice. It will only give internet forum members a sense of justice.

But you're not alone - the only time an American generally has any desire to discuss mental illness is when something like this happens, and their solution is generally the same being suggested on this board - lethal injection. Any manifestation of mental illness that is less than horrible, is ignored, which is why Seattle and other cities have so many mentally ill people living on the streets.

But of course, he could simply be a sane, evil person who somehow managed to hide his murderous tendencies for his entire life. I'm sure it's possible.

[Leon]

This was premeditated for months and months. That is not an episode. Otherwise I tend to agree.

Originally Posted by Runscott

The Thorazine shuffle? Do you even know what Thorazine is for? It's used to treat Schizophrenia, which is a mental illness. If this man was in the middle of his first manic break as a schizophrenic, then he's mentally ill and was not acting with his own mind. First mental breaks normally occur for schizophrenic men in their 20's, and they are generally exceptionally intelligent and creative people, and the illness manifests itself as anger. Prior to the attack, there might have been some eccentric behavior, but no family wants to think their son is mentally ill, so it gets ignored. When the person comes down from the break (which might not even happen with a schizophrenic), they are generally horrified at what they have done.

Basically, if he's mentally ill, executing him is not going to give the family members any sense of justice. It will only give internet forum members a sense of justice.

But you're not alone - the only time an American generally has any desire to discuss mental illness is when something like this happens, and their solution is generally the same being suggested on this board - lethal injection. Any manifestation of mental illness that is less than horrible, is ignored, which is why Seattle and other cities have so many mentally ill people living on the streets.

But of course, he could simply be a sane, evil person who somehow managed to hide his murderous tendencies for his entire life. I'm sure it's possible.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

This was premeditated for months and months. That is not an episode. Otherwise I tend to agree.

The reference to an antipsychotic for treating schizophrenia and bipolar disorder was what got my reaction. Like everyone else here, I obviously don't know what caused this man to do what he did.

But, yes - an 'episode' can actually last for 6 months or even a year, during which time the person's brain is quite different - his mental functions may actually get better in a lot of ways (more creative, artistic, quicker thinking, etc); however, there should have been some hints that he was having a problem.

Edited to add: Any time someone murders, people want justice. You can't get justice by executing someone who is insane, which is why people want insanity please to be bogus. But what if the person really is insane? Do you execute anyone who commits murder, whether they did it while in their right mind or not? I would argue that someone who accidentally runs his car into a crowd of people and kills 11 people is acting while in their right mind, while an insane person who plans the murder of 11 people is not. A person who was drunk and kills 11 people 'by accident' was acting in their right mind when they began drinking while their car keys were in their pocket.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The Thorazine shuffle? Do you even know what Thorazine is for? It's used to treat Schizophrenia, which is a mental illness. If this man was in the middle of his first manic break as a schizophrenic, then he's mentally ill and was not acting with his own mind. First mental breaks normally occur for schizophrenic men in their 20's, and they are generally exceptionally intelligent and creative people, and the illness manifests itself as anger. Prior to the attack, there might have been some eccentric behavior, but no family wants to think their son is mentally ill, so it gets ignored. When the person comes down from the break (which might not even happen with a schizophrenic), they are generally horrified at what they have done.

Basically, if he's mentally ill, executing him is not going to give the family members any sense of justice. It will only give internet forum members a sense of justice.

But you're not alone - the only time an American generally has any desire to discuss mental illness is when something like this happens, and their solution is generally the same being suggested on this board - lethal injection. Any manifestation of mental illness that is less than horrible, is ignored, which is why Seattle and other cities have so many mentally ill people living on the streets.

But of course, he could simply be a sane, evil person who somehow managed to hide his murderous tendencies for his entire life. I'm sure it's possible.

+1 Very well said...

Yes, an episode can last 6 months.... Actually much much longer if no one cares to notice. Just ask the homeless man talking to the telephone pole. I am very close to someone who suffers from schitzophrenia. People who fake being sick to cover for a crime are the worst. Definetly not great spokesmen for those wih real problems.

If he's sick, he's in for a rude awakening.

Also, it's a damn shame the only medication available for mental illness basically turns people into zombies.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Also, it's a damn shame the only medication available for mental illness basically turns people into zombies.

That's not actually the case. I can promise you, if this guy is in the middle of a schizophrenic or bipolar episode, there is no way he is going to take anything other than an antipsychotic, which can be legally injected into him and yes, may give him a zombie-like appearance. That's because such people do NOT think there is anything wrong with themselves - the part of the brain that is affected by the illness is also the part that gives insight, meaning that they are incapable of knowing that they are ill. With schizophrenics, getting them to take medication is an ongoing problem, as they never get insight. But there are medications that allow some of these people to function fine - sometimes with no side effects, and actually better than before their break.

I apologize if my posts have insulted anyone's intelligence, but I have met more schizophrenics and others with bipolar disorder, than I ever could have imagined, and the stories that their loved ones tell are heart-wrenching. I know that the family of the Cafe murderer here in Seattle, had been trying to get him help for a long time, but he refused it and was 'protected' from his family's and acquaintances' help by the HIPPA laws. The outcome was murder of several innocent people.

But again, the Colorado guy might be a different situation. I'm sure we'll find out at some point.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Runscott

But there are medications that allow some of these people to function fine - sometimes with no side effects, and actually better than before their break.

Could you please in form me of these miracle drugs? I've spent a solid chunk of the last 15 years researching every single possible alternative to Zyprexa to no avail. Some drugs, like Geodon, Have actually drastically made things much worse.

I've been to every Board and Care in southern California. Every single individual living in these places resemble a zombie to me. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I actually really hope you know something that I don't.

-Matt

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Could you please in form me of these miracle drugs? I've spent a solid chunk of the last 15 years researching every single possible alternative to Zyprexa to no avail. Some drugs, like Geodon, Have actually drastically made things much worse.

I've been to every Board and Care in southern California. Every single individual living in these places resemble a zombie to me. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I actually really hope you know something that I don't.

-Matt

Mark, argumentative is okay

I'm guessing you know all of this, as my experience is limited, but what I said is more true for those with bipolar disorder, as many can eventually get off the antipsychotics, leaving them on mood suppressors such as lithium, that in many cases have few, if any, side effects.

Schizophrenia is much more difficult because antipsychotics are always necessary, and too often cause side effects. Also, what helps one patient may be ineffective for another, and there may be other conditions that have to be treated at the same time, requiring a 'cocktail' of drugs. Finding something that reduces symptoms AND has few side effects, can be a lifetime battle. Zyprexa (olanzapine), from what I've seen, is pretty horrible for a lot of patients - muscle rigidity, hand tremors, general dullness. Haldol can also have very bad side effects. I've seen risperidone used with no side effects at all, but the dosage was low - possibly too low for a schizophrenic patient. I've seen schizophrenic patients who showed few side effects (if any), but I didn't know their baseline personality, or what they were on.

If you want to stay in touch about this, PM me. I have good resources to ask questions of, and I'll ask about antipsychotics and their side effects.