Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljQpthFixws

[Neal]

#AsLongAsIt'sSlabbed

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[G1911]

Am I missing something or did he just soak it and rub glue residue off?

[perezfan]

Not my thing, but I think it's a proprietary solution he's peddling, and not just water that the cards soak in. That said, I bet SGC loves this video getting out there.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Not my thing, but I think it's a proprietary solution he's peddling, and not just water that the cards soak in. That said, I bet SGC loves this video getting out there.

That was my thought, if it's water, no problem. If not, then it could be...

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Not my thing, but I think it's a proprietary solution he's peddling, and not just water that the cards soak in. That said, I bet SGC loves this video getting out there.

It ain't water.
https://www.kurtscardcare.com/

[irv]

Are glues that were used during that era not water soluble glues, or at least some of them?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Neal

#AsLongAsIt'sSlabbed

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I like that!

Honestly, I was good with the cleaning part (just wiping off the card) but then cringed when I saw the soaking, but then I thought about it and nothing was added (for example color) or subtracted (trimmed) from the overall card. It was just cleaned.

If someone wants to see the N54 people grab their pitchforks and meet in the town square, then show a video of some butt head trimming a card and showing it regraded as a 7 or 8.

Just curious, what's the price difference between a PSA2 and SGC4 for that card? I bet it's quite a bit. Crack, clean, submit, and sell for more! What happens is the total population for the graded cards increases unless the PSA2 was de-registered (which it probably wasn't)


#AsLongAsIt'sSlabbed

[4815162342]

Watch the ‘86 Fleer Jordan video…


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[Gorditadogg]

I don't know, I think this is great for all of us commoner collectors. Now we don't need a million dollars to build a million dollar collection. We just need a box of creased cards, $20 worth of Kurt's Card Cream and our own sweat and blood. How much better can it get!

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[Gorditadogg]

My question is: Once I put in the work on my cards to remove all those unsightly wrinkles and polish them up a bit, can I just put them right up on BST for sale? Or do I have to send them to PSA first for a final cleansing?

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[campyfan39]

hahahahaa!

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

My question is: Once I put in the work on my cards to remove all those unsightly wrinkles and polish them up a bit, can I just put them right up on BST for sale? Or do I have to send them to PSA first for a final cleansing?

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[Fred]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

My question is: Once I put in the work on my cards to remove all those unsightly wrinkles and polish them up a bit, can I just put them right up on BST for sale? Or do I have to send them to PSA first for a final cleansing?

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That's not a cleansing, that's a TPG certification that should indicate you don't have to disclose crap because "fix the card and slab it - and they will come".

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

My question is: Once I put in the work on my cards to remove all those unsightly wrinkles and polish them up a bit, can I just put them right up on BST for sale? Or do I have to send them to PSA first for a final cleansing?

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PSA first of course.

[Gorditadogg]

Whatever any of us thinks about the ethics of improving cards, it is happening. And it will continue to happen to the extent the work done is undetectable. People can rationalize all sorts of things if it is their interest to do so, and the economics of turning low-grade cards into PSA 7's is in a lot of peoples' self-interests.

I am wondering how material this will be to the overall market. Soaking and cleaning seems to me to be prevalent already, and Greg Morris doesn't even lower their grades for wax stains anymore, probably figuring the buyer will just rub it off. So some of these improvements are already being commonly done, and I think don't have much potential to increase significantly.

I guess if you have a card with a crease and nice corners, you should expect to get more for it now. I'm not really sure how many of those cards are out there though, and if "fixing" them would be enough to skew the market. If there are enough 3's that turn into 6's and 7's it could cause those top end values to slide, but who knows.

So bottom line what I am wondering is whether this is a big deal or not.




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[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Whatever any of us thinks about the ethics of improving cards, it is happening. And it will continue to happen to the extent the work done is undetectable. People can rationalize all sorts of things if it is their interest to do so, and the economics of turning low-grade cards into PSA 7's is in a lot of peoples' self-interests.

I am wondering how material this will be to the overall market. Soaking and cleaning seems to me to be prevalent already, and Greg Morris doesn't even lower their grades for wax stains anymore, probably figuring the buyer will just rub it off. So some of these improvements are already being commonly done, and I think don't have much potential to increase significantly.

I guess if you have a card with a crease and nice corners, you should expect to get more for it now. I'm not really sure how many of those cards are out there though, and if "fixing" them would be enough to skew the market. If there are enough 3's that turn into 6's and 7's it could cause those top end values to slide, but who knows.

So bottom line what I am wondering is whether this is a big deal or not.




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It is a huge deal and has been for decades. There are MANY people that just look for cards to "improve". It is a major business. The thing that many don't get is it is at ALL levels of cards. Yes no matter what you collect there are MANY people altering/making them nicer looking.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is a huge deal and has been for decades. There are MANY people that just look for cards to "improve". It is a major business. The thing that many don't get is it is at ALL levels of cards. Yes no matter what you collect there are MANY people altering/making them nicer looking.

Yes, that's all true. People are soaking cards, using art erasers to remove pencil marks and rubbing pantyhose to get rid of wax stains. Those practices are all widely done, and from reading Net54, widely accepted. It just seems to me that those "improvements" are already being done on a large scale and priced into the market.

If it's a problem ethically, we can debate, but we're already across the Rubicon on those things. It's being done, and the cards are out there.

So, if every collector bought a Kurt's Card Care Kit and cleaned all their cards, I don't think it would matter much because I think most cards that needed to be cleaned already have been.

Working out creases is new to me, but I wonder how many cards there are out there that would be high-grade except for a crease. Are there enough that, if they were all fixed, it would affect the market? I don't know.






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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is a huge deal and has been for decades. There are MANY people that just look for cards to "improve". It is a major business. The thing that many don't get is it is at ALL levels of cards. Yes no matter what you collect there are MANY people altering/making them nicer looking.

So what? Why do you care? Honestly. What difference does it make if people want to improve their cards? Just substitute "cards" with any other noun in your sentence above and I think you'll see why most people laugh or at least roll their eyes at that viewpoint. In general, people want to improve the condition of just about anything and everything. People make money improving things in pretty much all walks of life. This is completely normal behavior. Again, you're the crazy guy screaming at clouds.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

So what? Why do you care? Honestly. What difference does it make if people want to improve their cards? Just substitute "cards" with any other noun in your sentence above and I think you'll see why most people laugh or at least roll their eyes at that viewpoint. In general, people want to improve the condition of just about anything and everything. People make money improving things in pretty much all walks of life. This is completely normal behavior. Again, you're the crazy guy screaming at clouds.

Well, I think we care because if we have nice cards preserved in their original state, we are concerned their value may be diluted by a deluge of reconstituted Robocop cards.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Well, I think we care because if we have nice cards preserved in their original state, we are concerned their value may be diluted by a deluge of reconstituted Robocop cards.

But what if we actually all have Robocop cards that we mistakenly believe to be nice cards preserved in their original state and are concerned that their value may be diluted by a deluge of other Robocop cards?

[jchcollins]

I like baseball cards.




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[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I like baseball cards.




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Gorgeous card, my friend!

[Neal]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Gorgeous card, my friend!

The 55 Topps Aaron is one of the most beautiful cards of the 50s

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[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Neal

The 55 Topps Aaron is one of the most beautiful cards of the 50s

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No doubt! Where ya been, Neal?

[campyfan39]

Nice card. What is altered about it?

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I like baseball cards.




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[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

Nice card. What is altered about it?

Paper loss and tape on the back. I wasn't even considering the tape "alteration" when I sent it in; I suppose if I had been more forward thinking I could have removed it and still gotten a 1.





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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Paper loss and tape on the back. I wasn't even considering the tape "alteration" when I sent it in; I suppose if I had been more forward thinking I could have removed it and still gotten a 1.





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Perhaps ironically, the TPGs do not give Altered slabs for tape. There must be something else they didn't like.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Perhaps ironically, the TPGs do not give Altered slabs for tape. There must be something else they didn't like.

You know, I didn't think so. I sent it in thinking it had a fair chance to come back a 1 - but didn't really care as it's a PC card, and more than anything else I just wanted it in the SGC slab for looks. (I bought this raw a few years back for like $120 on ebay. Thought the front and image presented nicely for the price).

It's not color or trimming, because each of those are now noted separately on the flip with SGC. So I have no clue.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I like baseball cards.




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That is a nice Hank Aaron. Not to be a snob but I like mine perfectly centered and in Gem Mint condition like my Hank Aaron or I just throw them in the garbage. Maybe if I used a little bit of Kurts magic spray on the slight imperfection on the bottom left corner my Aaron would be perfect.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is a nice Hank Aaron. Not to be a snob but I like mine perfectly centered and in Gem Mint condition like my Hank Aaron or I just throw them in the garbage. Maybe if I used a little bit of Kurts magic spray on the slight imperfection on the bottom left corner my Aaron would be perfect.

Nice! Kurt might have a bit of a challenge working on that, LOL.

[CardPadre]

I think it has to do with the tape because it looks like the tape has been lifted and put back down. The print in that area is now misaligned and it ends up looking like paper separation that has been reattached by tape. That’s my assessment, anyway.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

I think it has to do with the tape because it looks like the tape has been lifted and put back down. The print in that area is now misaligned and it ends up looking like paper separation that has been reattached by tape. That’s my assessment, anyway.

Yeah, that was kind of my assessment - even if by their standards SGC technically got it "wrong." The tape and that paper loss on the back is obviously the major flaw, so if it's something else it would be surprising. I do look over all of the cards I submit with a blacklight before I package them up, and found nothing else obvious / suspicious on this one.

This is why I buy these kind of cards sometimes - the real value difference here is likely negligible whether it's a 1 or an AA - as eye appeal is going to be a bigger factor here than the number on the flip.

[campyfan39]

The 55 Aaron is a great card.
What what I have heard is that old tape is one thing that Kurt or nobody else can get off. Someone posted on a thread before about a restoration service "Gone with the stain." They do a lot of this kind of stuff.

I actually reached out to them about a card I would not ever sell, my Aaron rookie that I got from my folks for Christmas as a teen. It was obviously taped in a scrapbook on the corders/edges at some point. So you can see partial tape on the front. He said there was nothing he could do with that and it would peel the card to remove, likely tearing surface off.

I just considered doing that one because it looks so good other than the tape. Yet in some ways I am glad to leave "as is" because of the memory associated with it. Looks to me like someone made an attempt at peeling it and quickly put it back on when they saw what was happening.
Chris

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Yeah, that was kind of my assessment - even if by their standards SGC technically got it "wrong." The tape and that paper loss on the back is obviously the major flaw, so if it's something else it would be surprising. I do look over all of the cards I submit with a blacklight before I package them up, and found nothing else obvious / suspicious on this one.

This is why I buy these kind of cards sometimes - the real value difference here is likely negligible whether it's a 1 or an AA - as eye appeal is going to be a bigger factor here than the number on the flip.

[JustinD]

I love how I am supposed to think it is stupid and harms no one to tweak corners, press out creases, etc.

I would like feedback on how this is all perfectly wonderful and acceptable from the innocent buyers of what they thought were kosher cards that were exposed on BODA and the card lost most of it's value overnight and has a scarlet letter for the life of google search. Especially those that received no compensation, or realized their PSA number is sandwiched between a pile of identified cards in submissions and have to look at a previously loved card with a sideways eye they spent their full savings on?

The video that started this thread is honestly the most innocent Kurt's has posted, the others are majority pure alterations. To say misrepresentation hurts no one is silly, if they were labeled as authentic or authentic altered, I wouldn't care nor have reason to. The truth is when items are misrepresented and overpaid for, there are real victims. They lose real money if/when these cards are exposed.

Honestly this would normally make me pissed, it now just makes me sad. Well, as long as some people make money ya know...all good.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I love how I am supposed to think it is stupid and harms no one to tweak corners, press out creases, etc.

I would like feedback on how this is all perfectly wonderful and acceptable from the innocent buyers of what they thought were kosher cards that were exposed on BODA and the card lost most of it's value overnight and has a scarlet letter for the life of google search. Especially those that received no compensation, or realized their PSA number is sandwiched between a pile of identified cards in submissions and have to look at a previously loved card with a sideways eye they spent their full savings on?

The video that started this thread is honestly the most innocent Kurt's has posted, the others are majority pure alterations. To say misrepresentation hurts no one is silly, if they were labeled as authentic or authentic altered, I wouldn't care nor have reason to. The truth is when items are misrepresented and overpaid for, there are real victims. They lose real money if/when these cards are exposed.

Honestly this would normally make me pissed, it now just makes me sad. Well, as long as some people make money ya know...all good.

I don't think the exposure the card with PSA cert# 00000001 has had any back lash, has it?

Sorry for my ignorance, what is BODA?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I love how I am supposed to think it is stupid and harms no one to tweak corners, press out creases, etc.

I would like feedback on how this is all perfectly wonderful and acceptable from the innocent buyers of what they thought were kosher cards that were exposed on BODA and the card lost most of it's value overnight and has a scarlet letter for the life of google search. Especially those that received no compensation, or realized their PSA number is sandwiched between a pile of identified cards in submissions and have to look at a previously loved card with a sideways eye they spent their full savings on?

Most of what I've seen on BODA involves cards that were later photo matched showing obvious trimming, color work, or something permanent to that effect. The most glaring I've ever seen were the JSA fake vintage autos on prewar in SGC slabs, and then photos obviously of the exact same cards sans signature. I'm not sure if those were part of the same outing on BODA, but the methods used to show before / after were similar.

Whether you find Kurt and his methods harmless or think it's outright alteration - the truth again at least to this point is that his work / methods would seem to be difficult to detect afterwards. Cards that have been touched using his methods routinely make it through all the reputable TPG's without issue. Again I would say that grading is not the yardstick for many, and especially here - to conclude that a card has not been altered. But the truth is in the hobby for a lot of the rest of folks it is, whether we like it or not.

I wouldn't think you are stupid for not concluding that cards subjected to these methods were not harmed, anymore than I would hope others would not find me stupid for not being able to tell which card is the one with a fixed corner from Kurt's spray 10 minutes later, searching through a pile. There may be a way to do this, but I haven't found it yet.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I love how I am supposed to think it is stupid and harms no one to tweak corners, press out creases, etc.

I would like feedback on how this is all perfectly wonderful and acceptable from the innocent buyers of what they thought were kosher cards that were exposed on BODA and the card lost most of it's value overnight and has a scarlet letter for the life of google search. Especially those that received no compensation, or realized their PSA number is sandwiched between a pile of identified cards in submissions and have to look at a previously loved card with a sideways eye they spent their full savings on?

The video that started this thread is honestly the most innocent Kurt's has posted, the others are majority pure alterations. To say misrepresentation hurts no one is silly, if they were labeled as authentic or authentic altered, I wouldn't care nor have reason to. The truth is when items are misrepresented and overpaid for, there are real victims. They lose real money if/when these cards are exposed.

I disagree regarding the devaluation of said cards. The market has clearly shown that it doesn't give two clucks about what cert numbers have been outed by BODA or which cards make it onto that completely unusable Tiffany Cards database. As long as the cert is still valid, the cards can be bought and sold pretty much anywhere at full market pricing. People who say otherwise are not looking at the data, but rather are projecting based on that which they wish to be true. Rightly or wrongly, it is what it is.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

The 55 Aaron is a great card.
What what I have heard is that old tape is one thing that Kurt or nobody else can get off. Someone posted on a thread before about a restoration service "Gone with the stain." They do a lot of this kind of stuff.

"Gone With The Stain", and Dick Towle - it's now deceased founder - have been around for decades. From all accounts, they can get stains of all types and tape and album residue off cards and make them look like nothing ever happened. I would not assume that their methods are as "natural" as Kurt's Card Care claims theirs are. I think it's mostly harsh chemicals that are used, but supposedly it gets the job done.

For what it is worth there are also noted accounts of collectors who say that GWTS ruined their cards trying to get whatever offending material off of them. Not sure what happens in those cases. I'm guessing you have to submit a disclosure to not hold them accountable before they will work on your cards.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

"Gone With The Stain", and Dick Towle - it's now deceased founder - have been around for decades. From all accounts, they can get stains of all types and tape and album residue off cards and make them look like nothing ever happened. I would not assume that their methods are as "natural" as Kurt's Card Care claims theirs are. I think it's mostly harsh chemicals that are used, but supposedly it gets the job done.

For what it is worth there are also noted accounts of collectors who say that GWTS ruined their cards trying to get whatever offending material off of them. Not sure what happens in those cases. I'm guessing you have to submit a disclosure to not hold them accountable before they will work on your cards.

GWTS uses solvents to dissolve the adhesive and remove tape. Sometimes tape comes off cleanly, sometimes it doesn't and results in paper loss. You can also remove tape with a hair dryer. Just depends on what kind of tape it is. Sometimes the tape leaves behind a yellowish stain behind it. When that happens, nobody can get that stain out. Not even GWTS. Not without completely destroying the card anyhow.

[Jeff1970Red]

I’ve shifted my focus from prewar baseball to vintage & modern soccer. I’ve had to come to terms with soaking & using a professional removal service when purchasing vintage albums. Typically, PSA catches the glue residue and provides grades of 2.5 or less, but the removal process is absolutely necessary to retain any type of eye appeal.

Examples of a professional removal compared with a not so professional one.

[4815162342]

Ignoring the shiny card being discussed, I thought this post by PSA’s president was interesting.


https://x.com/rhoge/status/176802857...drPQjLt5o7epiw


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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Ignoring the shiny card being discussed, I thought this post by PSA’s president was interesting.


https://x.com/rhoge/status/176802857...drPQjLt5o7epiw


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Their policy is pretty clear. I've been saying this all along, but their website says they will consider a card to be altered if [and only if - emphasis added] it "bears evidence of trimming, recoloring, cleaning, etc".

There is a world of difference between a properly cleaned card and a card that "bears evidence of cleaning". These two things are not the same. They are only concerned about the latter.

If you can't read between the lines, I'd be happy to translate for you. He's saying, "if you use something to clean your cards with, you should probably wipe it off before submitting it."

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Their policy is pretty clear. I've been saying this all along, but their website says they will consider a card to be altered if [and only if - emphasis added] it "bears evidence of trimming, recoloring, cleaning, etc".

There is a world of difference between a properly cleaned card and a card that "bears evidence of cleaning". These two things are not the same. They are only concerned about the latter.

If you can't read between the lines, I'd be happy to translate for you. He's saying, "if you use something to clean your cards with, you should probably wipe it off before submitting it."

Read his post again and you’ll find he mentioned more than “cleaning.”


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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Read his post again and you’ll find he mentioned more than “cleaning.”


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Read my post again and you'll find that I was referring to the verbiage used in their official policy that is published on their website.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Read my post again and you'll find that I was referring to the verbiage used in their official policy that is published on their website.

You said, ‘If you can't read between the lines, I'd be happy to translate for you. He's saying, "if you use something to clean your cards with, you should probably wipe it off before submitting it."’

The PSA prez wasn’t only talking about cleaning cards, but also removing dents and creases, fixing corners, etc. with Kurt’s magic card juice.


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[4815162342]

Apparently this was spotted at the Dallas Card Show this past weekend.




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[4815162342]

Comparing juicing up baseball cards to fixing cars is absurd. G’day, mate.


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[4815162342]

“Cleaning”






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[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

“Cleaning”






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Yep a great example of "soaking" a card. It is why so many do it.

[4815162342]

I have been against card doctoring in all of its many forms, but this video has completely changed my mind. Peter, I’m leaving the island. Frosty, I’m taking a boat to the mainland!

https://youtu.be/hO5lTeA4iGE?si=rX7V9zYL82KWRWuE