Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

PSA 4 to PSA 7:

https://youtube.com/shorts/yM8EDunuN...BxrlCbAkVRCuQo


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If we have reached the point where people justify that, then I don't recognize what this hobby has become. We used to value the relative worth of cards on how well they had survived whatever they had been through, not who could do the slickest job of fixing them. What the (*&^& ever happened to originality?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If we have reached the point where people justify that, then I don't recognize what this hobby has become. We used to value the relative worth of cards on how well they had survived whatever they had been through, not who could do the slickest job of fixing them. What the (*&^& ever happened to originality?

Not long ago it was really just the one guy defending such conduct here, but after this thread there is apparently a large and growing contingent here who are openly in favor of any fraud, altering and misrepresentation that can be gotten away with now. I'd pretend to be surprised but $$$ > anything.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Not long ago it was really just the one guy defending such conduct here, but after this thread there is apparently a large and growing contingent here who are openly in favor of any fraud, altering and misrepresentation that can be gotten away with now. I'd pretend to be surprised but $$$ > anything.

I'm resigned to it and acknowledge it, but I still hate it. It shifts the focus completely from originality to who can do the most and get away with it. And people twist themselves into pretzels to justify or downplay it.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Not long ago it was really just the one guy defending such conduct here, but after this thread there is apparently a large and growing contingent here who are openly in favor of any fraud, altering and misrepresentation that can be gotten away with now. I'd pretend to be surprised but $$$ > anything.

The vast majority of collectors are completely OK with this. They've just been scared to express their opinions publicly because people like you are out there with pitchforks trying to crucify anyone who doesn't see things the same way as you. It takes someone like me who doesn't give two Fs about what others think of me to call it like it is. You can continue to call it fraud until the cows come home, but that will never make it actual fraud. You're in the minority here. It is what it is.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The vast majority of collectors are completely OK with this. They've just been scared to express their opinions publicly because people like you are out there with pitchforks trying to crucify anyone who doesn't see things the same way as you. It takes someone like me who doesn't give two Fs about what others think of me to call it like it is. You can continue to call it fraud until the cows come home, but that will never make it actual fraud. You're in the minority here. It is what it is.

I know, I'm evil for being against altering items and selling without disclosure and criminal fraud. You're a strong hero for your courageous no two fucks given defense of non-disclosure and fraud.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

I know, I'm evil for being against altering items and selling without disclosure and criminal fraud. You're a strong hero for your courageous no two fucks given defense of non-disclosure and fraud.

You're not evil, you're just delusional. The problem is that you keep calling it "alteration" and "fraud". Neither are true. Pushing down a bent corner with your thumb or even a stick is not an alteration. Soaking a card in water does not alter the card. Placing a card in a humidor does not alter the card.

If you brought a dress shirt to a tailor and said you wanted to get an alteration done on it and asked for a quote, they'd look at you like you were crazy after explaining to them that the "alteration" you'd like to have done is just to have it steamed (or ironed, steam cleaned, etc.).

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You're not evil, you're just delusional. The problem is that you keep calling it "alteration" and "fraud". Neither are true. Pushing down a bent corner with your thumb or even a stick is not an alteration. Soaking a card in water does not alter the card. Placing a card in a humidor does not alter the card.

If you brought a dress shirt to a tailor and said you wanted to get an alteration done on it and asked for a quote, they'd look at you like you were crazy after explaining to them that the "alteration" you'd like to have done is just to have it steamed (or ironed, steam cleaned, etc.).

How many cards have you … tailored into higher grade slabs?


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[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You're not evil, you're just delusional. The problem is that you keep calling it "alteration" and "fraud". Neither are true. Pushing down a bent corner with your thumb or even a stick is not an alteration. Soaking a card in water does not alter the card. Placing a card in a humidor does not alter the card.

If you brought a dress shirt to a tailor and said you wanted to get an alteration done on it and asked for a quote, they'd look at you like you were crazy after explaining to them that the "alteration" you'd like to have done is just to have it steamed (or ironed, steam cleaned, etc.).

Next time, try and read first. I have not spoken a word against pushing on a corner with your finger or soaking whatsoever and actually said the opposite. I know this board largely struggles to read transcripts but it's right there. You just make things up to defend fraud, shilling, alteration, or whatever unethical act of the day has your fancy.

Originally Posted by Snowman

That some people choose to conflate an original item that has been cleaned with one that is counterfeit is not my concern. G1911 can continue on in his delusion as long as he chooses. The rest of us are going to continue to soak cards, push down bent-up corners, and wipe off fingerprints and smudges from the surfaces. Sorry, not sorry.

Here's another complete lie from our resident fraud guy. You cannot possibly be so stupid as to not understand the contextual use of 'original'. Again, where did I speak against pushing on a corner with your finger or wiping fingerprint? Nowhere. I said the opposite. You claim people argued against non-controversial things to then conflate them with egregious acts and non-disclosure to pretend it's all fine.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Next time, try and read first. I have not spoken a word against pushing on a corner with your finger or soaking whatsoever and actually said the opposite. I know this board largely struggles to read transcripts but it's right there. You just make things up to defend fraud, shilling, alteration, or whatever unethical act of the day has your fancy.



Here's another complete lie from our resident fraud guy. You cannot possibly be so stupid as to not understand the contextual use of 'original'. Again, where did I speak against pushing on a corner with your finger or wiping fingerprint? Nowhere. I said the opposite. You claim people argued against non-controversial things to then conflate them with egregious acts and non-disclosure to pretend it's all fine.

BS. You have berated every post I've made in this thread and seemingly every other thread on this topic. I have only defended benign behaviors such as soaking cards in water, laying down a bent corner, cleaning smudges or gunk off the surfaces (as with the card in the OP), etc. Yet you continue to berate me and say I'm defending "altering" cards and repeatedly accuse me of fraud. It's getting old. You constantly chime in with the most ignorant takes on just about every topic this board has to offer. Maybe try reading a book or two? Have you ever thought about that? Maybe try to learn something for once in your life? Or not.

Also, it is you who needs a refresher on the definition of 'original', not me. Here is the contextually relevant entry from the Oxford Dictionary for 'original':

Original - the form or language in which something was first produced or created.

Words have meanings. If you don't like this one, then pick a different word.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If we have reached the point where people justify that, then I don't recognize what this hobby has become. We used to value the relative worth of cards on how well they had survived whatever they had been through, not who could do the slickest job of fixing them. What the (*&^& ever happened to originality?

I think the disappointment stems from people just now becoming aware of the fact that this stuff goes on behind the scenes. People create these romantic ideals in their heads of how something "ought" to be, and just assume or pretend that it is such. But make no mistake about it, this stuff has been going on since the beginning of the hobby. People have been soaking cards since the day they were made. It has never stopped happening and never will. As soon as someone soaks a card for the first time and realizes, "Wow! You can do that and it doesn't damage the card in any way!?" their perception changes. They tell their friends, their friends do the same, and it perpetuates. Then people also learn that soaking a card, or even just adding a little bit of moisture or humidity, can also improve things like bent corners and creases.

I think some people just tried to keep it a secret because they want to "hold all the cards" so-to-speak. They want to make money from it and they don't want competition. If too many people know how to clean cards, then there's no money in it for them. But with social media and the DIY/how-to culture of the younger generations, knowledge is power and is much more freely available. There are countless YouTube channels today that are dedicated to restoration techniques of anything and everything collectible from antique tools to box cars to casino chips to comic books to sports cards and anything and everything in between. Most people just like nice stuff. They don't care if it has been cleaned. In fact, they prefer it. They care that it is original & not counterfeit. I align much more closely with that viewpoint. I'd much rather everyone knows about what actually goes on and pull back the curtains than to sit there in silence and hope nobody else figures this out.

That some people choose to conflate an original item that has been cleaned with one that is counterfeit is not my concern. G1911 can continue on in his delusion as long as he chooses. The rest of us are going to continue to soak cards, push down bent-up corners, and wipe off fingerprints and smudges from the surfaces. Sorry, not sorry.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think the disappointment stems from people just now becoming aware of the fact that this stuff goes on behind the scenes. People create these romantic ideals in their heads of how something "ought" to be, and just assume or pretend that it is such. But make no mistake about it, this stuff has been going on since the beginning of the hobby. People have been soaking cards since the day they were made. It has never stopped happening and never will. As soon as someone soaks a card for the first time and realizes, "Wow! You can do that and it doesn't damage the card in any way!?" their perception changes. They tell their friends, their friends do the same, and it perpetuates. Then people also learn that soaking a card, or even just adding a little bit of moisture or humidity, can also improve things like bent corners and creases.

I think some people just tried to keep it a secret because they want to "hold all the cards" so-to-speak. They want to make money from it and they don't want competition. If too many people know how to clean cards, then there's no money in it for them. But with social media and the DIY/how-to culture of the younger generations, knowledge is power and is much more freely available. There are countless YouTube channels today that are dedicated to restoration techniques of anything and everything collectible from antique tools to box cars to casino chips to comic books to sports cards and anything and everything in between. Most people just like nice stuff. They don't care if it has been cleaned. In fact, they prefer it. They care that it is original & not counterfeit. I align much more closely with that viewpoint. I'd much rather everyone knows about what actually goes on and pull back the curtains than to sit there in silence and hope nobody else figures this out.

That some people choose to conflate an original item that has been cleaned with one that is counterfeit is not my concern. G1911 can continue on in his delusion as long as he chooses. The rest of us are going to continue to soak cards, push down bent-up corners, and wipe off fingerprints and smudges from the surfaces. Sorry, not sorry.

I think you are somewhat conflating "original" with "authentic." We may get into semantic knots on this one, but I think of original not as the opposite of counterfeit, but as a card without anything done to it. That's the sense I am using it in, anyhow. Now yeah all these things are slippery slopes and don't hold up at the far edges, I understand that. It's a Socratic method lover's dream. What if you flick something that's stuck to the surface off, what if you rub off a wax stain, blah blah blah.

Just curious btw, if you do these things yourself (and I acknowledge they are less concerning than the big three of trimming, recoloring and rebuilding), do you disclose, and if not why?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think you are somewhat conflating "original" with "authentic." We may get into semantic knots on this one, but I think of original not as the opposite of counterfeit, but as a card without anything done to it. That's the sense I am using it in, anyhow. Now yeah all these things are slippery slopes and don't hold up at the far edges, I understand that. It's a Socratic method lover's dream. What if you flick something that's stuck to the surface off, what if you rub off a wax stain, blah blah blah.

It's not just a Socratic exercise though or semantic slopes. The entire notion of "original" in the sense that you prefer is a moot construct. Every vintage card has been handled by oily grimy fingers. And even just the oils from our fingers do far more to "alter" (in the sense that many here are using the term) the original state of a card than water does. People get crud on their cards and they wipe it off. Greasy fingerprints change the state of a card. These facts are not merely semantics. You're free to pick and choose which changes from a card's original state you prefer to have in your collection, but it is rather silly, and arbitrary, to expect others to adhere to those same standards.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Just curious btw, if you do these things yourself (and I acknowledge they are less concerning than the big three of trimming, recoloring and rebuilding), do you disclose, and if not why?

If I clean a card, I do so in a manner that does not damage the card in any way. I have never once had a card that I cleaned get rejected for cleaning from any grading company because I don't use any methods that would damage or alter the card in any way. I consider an alteration to be the same things that PSA and SGC would consider an alteration. Things like trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, smashing card stock to press out creases, using harsh chemicals that damage the print and gloss or make the cards brittle, etc. Basically anything that damages a card or changes it from its original state, I would consider to be an alteration (and that even includes some things that the grading companies allow, but I personally do not).

I have damaged cards in the past and later resold them with full disclosure, highlighting the damage in both the title and in the description along with clear images in my listings.

If a card has been damaged or altered, I believe it should be disclosed. But if it has simply been cleaned in a manner that leaves nothing behind on the card and does not damage or alter the card stock in any way, then that's immaterial to the value of the card as it has no bearing on its market value. There is simply nothing to disclose in that case. It would be like disclosing that a truck had previously been farted in. The fart is gone now, so the market doesn't care. The card market cares about the present state of a card; its current condition, and whether a card has been damaged/altered (which are arguably interchangeable terms in this context). The market does not care if a card previously had something on it which is no longer there. You could take any card I've cleaned, crack it out of its slab, and resubmit it one hundred times and it's going to pass grading every time because what I do does not damage or alter them in any way. It is immaterial with respect to its market value. If there is nothing on the card or nothing missing from the card, then there is nothing there to disclose.

We should all care far more about sellers and auction houses listing cards with creases that aren't visible in their scans and not disclosed in the listings than we should about a card that used to have something on it that is no longer there. Or if it used to have a bent-over corner that has been laid back down. I only care about a card's present state, and so does the market.

Also, this idea that the only reason people don't disclose something as simple as having gently cleaned a card is because they're being deceitful and want to defraud others is nonsense. That may be true of something like trimming or recoloring, but it's not true of something as benign as card cleaning. The reason they don't disclose it is because there is nothing to disclose. It's absolutely immaterial. And unlike me, most people have no interest in getting into discussions with delusional people online who wish to publicly crucify them if they don't see things their way. This is the real reason people choose not to disclose these sorts of things. It's just not worth the drama.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If we have reached the point where people justify that, then I don't recognize what this hobby has become. We used to value the relative worth of cards on how well they had survived whatever they had been through, not who could do the slickest job of fixing them. What the (*&^& ever happened to originality?

Completely agree Peter.