1952 Rosen Mantle SGC 9.5 Final Price – Too high, too low, just right?

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by rand1com

+1

+2

[Snowman]

+3

[NYYFan63]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

So many haters on this site. Two guys (maybe this thread or another) are calling the guy heartless and blaming people freezing without electricity on whoever bought this card. Shoeless Moe is doubting its a real a sale because the winner is not all over the media -- why does the buyer need to announce himself? Other people have already decided its a forgone conclusion that this card will be flipped in 6 months to 2 years for profit. Why do you assume this, and even if its true, what's wrong with that?

Someone purchased an amazing example of a top 2 iconic baseball card. They had the money, and they paid up for it. Why are they cold/heartless, or seeking attention, or looking to make a quick buck? Why such negativity toward a record-breaking sale and the guy (or girl) who bought it? And remember, there was at least one bona fide under-bidder here, and likely several more above $10mm.

Sincere congratulations to whoever bought the SGC 9.5 Mantle. If I had the money, I would have been an active bidder. I think its an amazing card and I think this sale is good for cards and the industry.

I agree with you 100%. I was going to provide a similar response, but decided against it. Who are these people to say how the buyer/bidders spend their hard earned money? Cracks me up.


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[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree with you and the evolution into a investment area and ego measuring contest. This card in particular seems to being out the worst though. Even threads about the trimmed Wagner don’t have such deranged fury as these do. When a Wagner or a Ruth sells for a ton of money, it’s a fairly benign thread. The Mantle seems to bring out the hair trigger tempers that just cannot take any hint of a different opinion that isn’t about pumping up the market through the roof without flipping out. Can’t wait for the next person to go nuts over an inconvenient fact.

It is actually pretty comical reading grown men come unhinged needlessly defending a card. A real popcorn moment.

How was your Tuesday, by the way? As good or better than your Sunday?

[Directly]

I can remember Al Rosen *Mr. Mint" after his amazing 1952 High number find selling a nice 52 Mantle for $1,500 when the national was in St Louis. He probably had around 100 at the time, so has to be some other 9-10's in the bunch? The buyer told me to go get me one, but I didn't--oh well?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

It is actually pretty comical reading grown men come unhinged needlessly defending a card. A real popcorn moment.

How was your Tuesday, by the way? As good or better than your Sunday?

None of us are perfect, one of my imperfections is that I enjoy watching adults meltdown over any hint of dissent to their narratives, especially when the offending statement is a statement of actual fact and not even a dissenting opinion directly. That many adults are outraged when they discover that other people do not have the former's financial investments as the driver of the later's views is endlessly fascinating.

It's been a lovely Tuesday. Work was undramatic, I got lunch with a friend and baseball historian, and we disagreed on some points with reasonable debate and free of any meltdowns or screeching. I pulled down my 53 Topps master set (p-vg and treasonously raw) for cataloguing the black/white text variations in my spreadsheets, and mailed out some tobacco cards to a hobby pal. I'm spending the night curled up with a warm coffee and my old friend Hesiod. While it would have been a nice bonus if others pumped the stocks I'm holding and we had an up day on the market instead of a down one, it has not ruined my day or made it worse that others are not putting their efforts into driving narratives financially beneficial to myself. I never even felt the desire to spew invective at people for saying things that are true but I wish were not true. I hope that yours also did not contain unbridled rage when confronted with people who do not share a fiscal interest you have or an inconvenient fact, sir.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

None of us are perfect, one of my imperfections is that I enjoy watching adults meltdown over any hint of dissent to their narratives, especially when the offending statement is a statement of actual fact and not even a dissenting opinion directly. That many adults are outraged when they discover that other people do not have the former's financial investments as the driver of the later's views is endlessly fascinating.

It's been a lovely Tuesday. Work was undramatic, I got lunch with a friend and baseball historian, and we disagreed on some points with reasonable debate and free of any meltdowns or screeching. I pulled down my 53 Topps master set (p-vg and treasonously raw) for cataloguing the black/white text variations in my spreadsheets, and mailed out some tobacco cards to a hobby pal. I'm spending the night curled up with a warm coffee and my old friend Hesiod. While it would have been a nice bonus if others pumped the stocks I'm holding and we had an up day on the market instead of a down one, it has not ruined my day or made it worse that others are not putting their efforts into driving narratives financially beneficial to myself. I never even felt the desire to spew invective at people for saying things that are true but I wish were not true. I hope that yours also did not contain unbridled rage when confronted with people who do not share a fiscal interest you have or an inconvenient fact, sir.

Well facts are very hard for some to accept. Inward looking eyeballs will do that to one's perspective.

So let me get this straight Greg...at no time did you or your friend feel the urge to condemn one another for dissenting view points? No F Offs were exchanged? Surely there had to be bile in that discussion so one of you had to be thinking to tell the other to F Off, no? I am glad to hear that you did not feel compelled to push an elderly lady down a staircase because your portfolio did not appreciate today. I am guessing it was not too hard to resist.

And thank you for asking. I had a great Tuesday. I was productive at work. Was able to cut out a few hours early, in fact. I would have been able to leave earlier had I not been sucked in by two grown men losing it here. Hit the gym, ran a few errands and had dinner at home with the wife, kid and dog. Caught up with each others' day and spent an hour looking at my severely off center (60/40 both ways) 1953 Bowman set to see which cards I needed to upgrade due to too much corner wear. Not once did I think to check the market, look on Zillow to see if my home went up or down in value or get upset that there has been no appreciable increase in the value of my Auth 52 Topps Mantle.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by NYYFan63

I agree with you 100%. I was going to provide a similar response, but decided against it. Who are these people to say how the buyer/bidders spend their hard earned money? Cracks me up.


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I'd rather learn how they previously invested their hard earned money.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Frank A

I agree with you 100%. Thousands of people will die this winter because they can't afford gas or heating oil or electricity and will freeze to death and some guy spends millions on a friggin baseball card. I wonder if he gives a shit about them. I will guess he does not. The priorities of things has gone to hell.

I am always somewhat intrigued at how some people are judged by others, who have never spoken to them, let alone gotten to know them really to the core.

I have friends that I've known for years. Some have shown their true colors and are no longer friends, and others volunteer their time at the local children's hospital and food bank. It took me years to find out their values and what they truly care about, and this happens over time.

Yet somehow, someone spends a lot of money (which is always relative) on a collectible (or a car, or art, or a purse) and that shows the world what their values are and how they are deep in their core? I doubt that. We don't even know their name.

[Johnny630]

I’ve never seen this amount of vitriol, anger, and bitterness over a Frigging Card. You either have one or don’t who the hell cares what other people do with their money? God Bless them. I’m just happy with what I have.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by NYYFan63

I agree with you 100%. I was going to provide a similar response, but decided against it. Who are these people to say how the buyer/bidders spend their hard earned money? Cracks me up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I’ve never seen this amount of vitriol, anger, and bitterness over a Frigging Card. You either have one or don’t who the hell cares what other people do with their money? God Bless them. I’m just happy with what I have.

+1

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Frank A

I agree with you 100%. Thousands of people will die this winter because they can't afford gas or heating oil or electricity and will freeze to death and some guy spends millions on a friggin baseball card. I wonder if he gives a shit about them. I will guess he does not. The priorities of things has gone to hell.

I don't understand this. As a child, I spent a nickel for a pack of cards. As an elderly man I spent six figures on one card. While this may indicate a lack of personal growth on my part, it doesn't mean that I don't care about the homeless. And we certainly don't know how the buyer of the Mantle card feels about problems around poverty. Poverty, homelessness and hunger have been with us for as long as I'm aware. We've spent countless dollars and the problems are still here. And every advanced society has had the idle rich, who take much more from society than they contribute. But to imply that a guy who spends huge money for a card is heartless, or for that matter to imply any connection between his spending and poverty is wrong.

You can feel any way you like about his spending that much money. I personally couldn't care less about the card. But that's no reason to imply that he's a bad person.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Well facts are very hard for some to accept. Inward looking eyeballs will do that to one's perspective.

So let me get this straight Greg...at no time did you or your friend feel the urge to condemn one another for dissenting view points? No F Offs were exchanged? Surely there had to be bile in that discussion so one of you had to be thinking to tell the other to F Off, no? I am glad to hear that you did not feel compelled to push an elderly lady down a staircase because your portfolio did not appreciate today. I am guessing it was not too hard to resist.

And thank you for asking. I had a great Tuesday. I was productive at work. Was able to cut out a few hours early, in fact. I would have been able to leave earlier had I not been sucked in by two grown men losing it here. Hit the gym, ran a few errands and had dinner at home with the wife, kid and dog. Caught up with each others' day and spent an hour looking at my severely off center (60/40 both ways) 1953 Bowman set to see which cards I needed to upgrade due to too much corner wear. Not once did I think to check the market, look on Zillow to see if my home went up or down in value or get upset that there has been no appreciable increase in the value of my Auth 52 Topps Mantle.

I know it sounds crazy, but there was no F off situation! I even had to stand factually corrected and abandon an argument when I misrecalled a statistic and Baseball-Reference proved me factually wrong. We even disagreed on faith as my reverent agnosticism does not align with his Catholicism. No screeching was had nor was anyone condemned to Hell.

Sounds like a good day to me, but I must express some surprise at one component. You mean you, sir, own a 52 Topps Mantle but are NOT ignoring inconvenient facts, what people you might be criticizing have actually said to argue against something they did not say but is easier to attack, and abandoning all dignity and connection to reality to spew complete fiction mixed with outraged fury to serve the obvious purpose of pumping the end of the market you are invested in and this card in particular? That is possible?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by hcv123

B) The other factor that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the relative value of baseball cards compared to other collectible categories. In that regard, I think the baseball card hobby is just getting warmed up. I see demand continuing to grow, especially so for the higher-end cards most of which are in ridiculously low supply relative to the demand. When I think about art or sculpture for example, 12.6 Million for one of the top 4 examples of one of the most iconic and high demand cards in the hobby just doesn't seem like that much money.

I hesitate to disagree with Howard, because he's a good friend, and has helped me immeasurably to get close to finishing my Master Mays set. He's also been a tremendous font of knowledge about almost every regional and oddball issue that is out there. And he's a true gentleman, so the last thing I want to do is start some sort of a Net54 spat, rife with ad hominem attacks, personal insults, and dirty words like "investor". So hopefully he will excuse my disagreeing with him.

But I sure hope he's wrong! Simply because when prices go up, it means that my dollars don't stretch as far when it comes to picking up great pieces for my own collection.

When I think about items with insane prices that are unmoored from reality, typically I think about things like original artwork, high end real estate in Vail (or her sister cities, of which there are many), wineries in Napa, rare classic cars, etc. When it comes to these items, I would posit that the biggest factors are:

1) Universality - they are sought by rich people around the world with money to burn.

2) They are extreme status symbols. There's nothing quite like owning an original DaVinci to show to the world and especially your filthy rich friends that you're a big deal, and possibly an even bigger deal than your other filthy rich friends.

I would argue that in many ways, at least on the baseball side, most of our cards don't have universal appeal. While certainly baseball is played outside of the U.S., including in South Korea, Japan, Mexico, Taiwan, and all around Latin America, I'm not convinced that for crazy rich people from those areas, collecting cards from U.S. players is going to be a huge draw. Not to mention all of the crazy rich people with money to burn from most of the rest of Southeast Asia, the Middle East, Europe, etc., just aren't going to be as excited to acquire American baseball cards compared to original artwork from a master.

When it comes to status symbols, baseball cards just don't have quite the same cache and panache as many of the other items that are out there. They're certainly not nearly as visible, and therefore usually not nearly as public. While I'm a poor excuse for a coastal elite, whether you're talking about the old money crowd, or even the new money crowd with all of the tech money, I just don't get the sense that a lot of them are looking to spend a lot of cash on our world. I would surmise that in some ways, those groups would not get the same amount of street cred amongst their peers from buying high-end baseball cards that they would get from buying other high-end items.

At the same time, $12M already has a lot of crazy priced into it. As others have observed, the odds are good that the Gretzky T206 Wagner or some of the PSA 10 1952T Mantles would probably fetch a higher price - possibly $20M, $50M, or more. And obviously at those prices, there are only so many houses in Vail, original pieces of art, and classic cars that would routinely fetch those prices.

So bottom line for me is that I have a hard time really seeing that our world will truly rival some of those other markets in terms of prices. But at the same time, maybe we're already kinda sorta there!

Not that I haven't been wrong before, and the odds are good that I will certainly be wrong again. But I really hope that I'm not wrong about this.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Misreads a post and uses that misreading to criticize people. Responds by cussing out the person who points this out and is factually correct.

What is it about this card that makes people go crazy? It’s a unique phenomenon.

Some other random musings:

We often fall into the trap of binary thinking. Issues are complex. People are complex. I know people who are filthy rich but whose idea of a fine night out is a trip to In N Out for a burger and fries (hint: ask for animal fries with chopped chilis). I know people who will drop everything to help a friend but whose politics are of the "let them eat cake" variety. It isn't all one thing or all the opposite.

I agree that we are really still ramping up as a transition to an alternative asset class. Look at the money not only pouring into the hobby infrastructure but also professionalizing it. We're seeing vertical integration, scaling of operations, etc. Then there are the rising marketplaces like Whatnot that are democratizing the live auction experience. I would not be surprised to see a National moving closer to the Comicon model in the next decade. It all points to a cross-over from a low-brow to a high-brow vision of collecting.

The Mantle is a great example of the art-like transition of the market. You can own a work by Roy Lichtenstein on a budget, but it will be a print or serigraph, not an original canvas. Very few could piss in the tall weeds with the big dogs who chased down the 9.5, but lots of us could get into a low-grade 52 T Mantle with some savings and liquidating of existing cards.

Which brings me to my next point, why people react so strongly. It is frustration. I've been there too. I was so frustrated with card prices 15 years ago that I stopped buying mainstream baseball cards and moved to regionals and Exhibits. I wish I'd spent some of that money on a midgrade Mantle when it was still a middle-class card, but I was too butt-hurt about not being able to afford every card I wanted that I just pulled a Cartman: "screw you guys, I'm going home."



Seems to me being all bent out of shape over someone else's good fortune is a waste of time and only hurts you; the rich guy who bought the card doesn't care one iota that you are frustrated. Won't do anything except make you mad. It's all just stuff; what is real is how we react to it. We can control that. Like James Brown sang: "You don't miss nothing you never had but you miss so much you wish you could get, hah!"

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

The Heritage 1952 Rosen Mantle SGC 9.5 sold Saturday for $12.6 million. Here is a new article about the sale: https://www.forbes.com/sites/carliep...h=6e4799033be2. I would like to get NET54’s thoughts on the price for this card.

I am in the camp of the price was too low. When I first saw the listing, I was sure it would go for close to $20 million. So while I get it was a record baseball card sale, I just thought with recent sky prices and the Mr. Mint storyline, it would have been more.

In other forums, I have seen the same argument made and here were the reasons why:

1. The grading company
2. The “toning” of the card
3. The auction house
4. Current inflation and stock market trends
5. Abundance of high end cards being recently auctioned off

I don’t think any of those really impacted the card (maybe number 5). It just a headscratcher to me on why it didn’t sell more.

What say you?

Something such as this Mantle are so far out of my range of owning, I just cannot say one way or another. It is like hitting the lottery on one side and buying a crapload of tickets on the other side and being off by one on each of the 6 numbers.

Just cannot begin to fathom if it is too much, not enough, or just right.

I'll stick to porridge.

Cheers,

Butch

[Shoeless Moe]

I think we can all agree on whoever bought the card is nuts.

Or if you prefer eccentric.

Or a billionaire who wipes his ass with hundred dollar bills.

It's a frickin' piece of cardboard that was mass produced.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

I think we can all agree on whoever bought the card is nuts.

Or if you prefer eccentric.

Or a billionaire who wipes his ass with hundred dollar bills.

It's a frickin' piece of cardboard that was mass produced.

Yes, someone traded a lot of pictures of dead presidents for one picture of a dead baseball player. Not really life and death stuff.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

[IMG]

Which brings me to my next point, why people react so strongly. It is frustration. I've been there too. I was so frustrated with card prices 15 years ago that I stopped buying mainstream baseball cards and moved to regionals and Exhibits. I wish I'd spent some of that money on a midgrade Mantle when it was still a middle-class card, but I was too butt-hurt about not being able to afford every card I wanted that I just pulled a Cartman: "screw you guys, I'm going home."

Seems to me being all bent out of shape over someone else's good fortune is a waste of time and only hurts you; the rich guy who bought the card doesn't care one iota that you are frustrated. Won't do anything except make you mad. It's all just stuff; what is real is how we react to it. We can control that. Like James Brown sang: "You don't miss nothing you never had but you miss so much you wish you could get, hah!"

I personally do not agree that there is anything wrong with spending $12 million on a card, though I never would and do not care at all what anyone but myself does with their money. You want to spend a mansion’s worth of money on a mass produced cardboard picture, go ahead. God bless America.

However, the “butt-hurt” and “bent out of shape” replies are people openly cheering for higher and higher prices, not these folks. We’ve had two people lose it, both clearly on this side. None of the people who have said they think spending $12,000,000 on a card is absurd have flipped out, cussed out people who were factually correct but corrected their BS, or posted dishonest accusatory rants straight up lying about what has actually been said in the transcripts here.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

I know it sounds crazy, but there was no F off situation! I even had to stand factually corrected and abandon an argument when I misrecalled a statistic and Baseball-Reference proved me factually wrong. We even disagreed on faith as my reverent agnosticism does not align with his Catholicism. No screeching was had nor was anyone condemned to Hell.

Sounds like a good day to me, but I must express some surprise at one component. You mean you, sir, own a 52 Topps Mantle but are NOT ignoring inconvenient facts, what people you might be criticizing have actually said to argue against something they did not say but is easier to attack, and abandoning all dignity and connection to reality to spew complete fiction mixed with outraged fury to serve the obvious purpose of pumping the end of the market you are invested in and this card in particular? That is possible?

Wow two grown men who conducted themselves respectfully and civilly. Next time you really need to throw punches, that is if you want to be a part of this hobby and really fit in. Public temper tantrums when not warranted by grown men are so underrated. Especially ones that will be saved for eternity on a chat board. I suppose when you collect things which were created for 8 year olds that acting like one, again, 30 or 40 years later can come with the territory.

Well to be honest. My Mantle is Authentic has a tilt and horribly OC at 70/30 both ways. Leading price pumpers of that card would not even consider is a 52 Mantle.

I hope your Wed is as great as your Tues.

[Shoeless Moe]

Just curious....how much in taxes does the consignor have to pay?

assuming the sale goes through.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

I personally do not agree that there is anything wrong with spending $12 million on a card, though I never would and do not care at all what anyone but myself does with their money. You want to spend a mansion’s worth of money on a mass produced cardboard picture, go ahead. God bless America.

However, the “butt-hurt” and “bent out of shape” replies are people openly cheering for higher and higher prices, not these folks. We’ve had two people lose it, both clearly on this side. None of the people who have said they think spending $12,000,000 on a card is absurd have flipped out, cussed out people who were factually correct but corrected their BS, or posted dishonest accusatory rants straight up lying about what has actually been said in the transcripts here.

100% agreed. I stated on one of the various threads, that may or may not have contained a member or two losing his shit, that the 12.6 sale was great for the hobby. Also stated based on the scans that the card appeared over graded. That someone can spend that on a card is incredible and while it potentially makes it harder for me to buy stuff, it shows that the card industry, which not long ago was simply a hobby, is being taken very seriously.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

100% agreed. I stated on one of the various threads, that may or may not have contained a member or two losing his shit, that the 12.6 sale was great for the hobby. Also stated based on the scans that the card appeared over graded. That someone can spend that on a card is incredible and while it potentially makes it harder for me to buy stuff, it shows that the card industry, which not long ago was simply a hobby, is being taken very seriously.

It's not great for the hobby.

It's great for sellers and auction houses and holders of Ruth, Wagner & Mantle.

It's pretty awful for collectors.

They have just found out they will never get certain cards...and possibly all levels, PSA1 thru 10.

Now that being said collectors HAVE to adjust their mindset and go to Authentic, Altered, Miscut, etc. If they want these cards. It's still the same card, just a lot worse shape, kind of like your wife when you first married her.

You still love her, she just ain't Mint10 anymore, get used to it, live with it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We will never know, but it would be fascinating to know what the sale price would have been if it had been graded a 9 (probably more accurate given the toning) and not designated as the world's greatest 311. The cynic in me says a significant amount less.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

It's not great for the hobby.

It's great for sellers and auction houses and holders of Ruth, Wagner & Mantle.

It's pretty awful for collectors.

They have just found out they will never get certain cards...and possibly all levels, PSA1 thru 10.

Now that being said collectors HAVE to adjust their mindset and go to Authentic, Altered, Miscut, etc. If they want these cards. It's still the same card, just a lot worse shape, kind of like your wife when you first married her.

You still love her, she just ain't Mint10 anymore, get used to it, live with it.

I understand your perspective but I do not think that every card in grades 1 - 10 will now jump up because someone spent 12.6 on an over graded 52 Mantle. The huge money that has poured in has been on elite caliber cards that guys like you and me were never going to be in the market for. Does this mean that a 54 T Snider in PSA 6.5 will be unattainable?

The market overall has already seen huge appreciation over the last 2 plus years. And like many things that go up they can go down and back up again. For most cards, prices are down sharply from where they were at the highs, yet we still have at least 2 people who did not care and slugged it out for the 9.5 Mantle. Sales of T206 Wagners have gone through the roof too. If you are referring to those cards, you are right. Most collectors are SOL. But they have been SOL well before the sale of the 52 Mantle in the 9.5.

Bottom line is that nothing stays the same. Change is inevitable. Adapt or be left behind. I have made my choice.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We will never know, but it would be fascinating to know what the sale price would have been if it had been graded a 9 (probably more accurate given the toning) and not designated as the world's greatest 311. The cynic in me says a significant amount less.

With a PSA 8 going for almost 3 million quite some time ago now. I think if it had been a PSA 9 with the same provenance it may well still have done 12.6.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

With a PSA 8 going for almost 3 million quite some time ago now. I think if it had been a PSA 9 with the same provenance it may well still have done 12.6.

SGC 9 is what my hypothetical was meant to say though. Still the same?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Just curious....how much in taxes does the consignor have to pay?

assuming the sale goes through.

Will depend a bit on selling costs that go to the auction house. Just for fun, let’s assume the seller nets $10,050,000 after they pay the action house their cut.

So the gain would be $10M.

Federal income taxes on collectible gains are 28%. Plus I think you get to pay a bonus 3.8% for Obamacare taxes on investment income.

Plus you get to pay whatever your state rate is. I thought I read somewhere that the seller is in NY. Plus you get to pay NYC taxes if they are in the city. Just for fun, let’s call state plus city 15%. I might be off a bit, but that’s probably pretty close.

So if we round it off, that puts the seller at a total tax rate of about 45%, which comes to roughly $4.5M if the gain is $10M.

Naturally, you can take a bit off if the seller isn’t really in NY and NYC.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SGC 9 is what my hypothetical was meant to say though. Still the same?

It's an interesting philosophical debate. Would buyers pay slightly less for this card if it were in an SGC 9.0 holder instead of SGC 9.5?

My gut tells me that there is probably a difference. But I'm guessing it might not be as much as we would expect. I wouldn't be surprised if it still got to $10M+ even at SGC 9.0 instead of SGC 9.5.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

It's an interesting philosophical debate. Would buyers pay slightly less for this card if it were in an SGC 9.0 holder instead of SGC 9.5?

My gut tells me that there is probably a difference. But I'm guessing it might not be as much as we would expect. I wouldn't be surprised if it still got to $10M+ even at SGC 9.0 instead of SGC 9.5.

Maybe but at SGC 9 it probably doesn't get a flip saying it's the best one in the history of the universe. Would that matter?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe but at SGC 9 it probably doesn't get a flip saying it's the best one in the history of the universe. Would that matter?

Could be! It’s just tied for best in the universe on the SGC pop charts?

So maybe it only goes for $8M?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Could be! It’s just tied for best in the universe on the SGC pop charts?

So maybe it only goes for $8M?

I mean who knows but I think that designation had to be worth a couple of million especially if the buyer is investment minded.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I mean who knows but I think that designation had to be worth a couple of million especially if the buyer is investment minded.

I guess part of the question for me is whether the buyer plans to cross it over to PSA. Obviously that takes some real boldness. But if they did, are they assuming it would cross to a PSA 9? And what would a PSA 9 be worth?

But maybe it would cross lower?

But the odds are good that the buyer isn’t planning to do anything more than stick it in the vault at home and wait for it to go up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I guess part of the question for me is whether the buyer plans to cross it over to PSA. Obviously that takes some real boldness. But if they did, are they assuming it would cross to a PSA 9? And what would a PSA 9 be worth?

But maybe it would cross lower?

But the odds are good that the buyer isn’t planning to do anything more than stick it in the vault at home and wait for it to go up.

But then it becomes one of what, 6 PSA 9s along with 3 10s? Kinda loses its claim to fame.

[Republicaninmass]

Mr mint was always known as a man of integrity and his salemanship was free from hyperbole.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But then it becomes one of what, 6 PSA 9s along with 3 10s? Kinda loses its claim to fame.

Likely.

I guess I was musing about whether a PSA 9 would be worth $15M or $20M, in which case it might make sense to cross it over. You could still claim that it’s the same card, with the same claim to fame, but now with a PSA flip to add to the flip collection.

Of course, it’s not my card to faff with, and I doubt I would touch it, even it if were mine.

Plus the added benefit that at $15M or $20M, the people who freak about $12M will get that much more excited.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I mean who knows but I think that designation had to be worth a couple of million especially if the buyer is investment minded.

Provenance: a record of ownership of a work of art or an antique, used as a guide to authenticity or quality.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I understand your perspective but I do not think that every card in grades 1 - 10 will now jump up because someone spent 12.6 on an over graded 52 Mantle. The huge money that has poured in has been on elite caliber cards that guys like you and me were never going to be in the market for. Does this mean that a 54 T Snider in PSA 6.5 will be unattainable?

The market overall has already seen huge appreciation over the last 2 plus years. And like many things that go up they can go down and back up again. For most cards, prices are down sharply from where they were at the highs, yet we still have at least 2 people who did not care and slugged it out for the 9.5 Mantle. Sales of T206 Wagners have gone through the roof too. If you are referring to those cards, you are right. Most collectors are SOL. But they have been SOL well before the sale of the 52 Mantle in the 9.5.

Bottom line is that nothing stays the same. Change is inevitable. Adapt or be left behind. I have made my choice.

Chase the one I feel skewed the market and made it untouchable for a while for many was the SGC 5 52 Mantle Sale in REA last month for $306,000. That killed a lot of guys' chances for the time being for being able to obtain one in a 5 or less. I feel it’s the reason why guys are asking, and cards are selling in major auction houses the same grade and less, grades 1-5, for ridiculous numbers for grades 1-3.

To me that SGC 5 1952 Mantle was the game changer. I can’t make any sense of the price it sold for, $306,000.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Chase the one I feel skewed the market and made it untouchable for a while for many was the SGC 5 52 Mantle Sale in REA last month for $306,000. That killed a lot of guys' chances for the time being for being able to obtain one in a 5 or less. I feel it’s the reason why guys are asking, and cards are selling in major auction houses the same grade and less, grades 1-5, for ridiculous numbers for grades 1-3.

To me that SGC 5 1952 Mantle was the game changer. I can’t make any sense of the price it sold for, $306,000.

Man, in the day who knew, eh John? Even with a relatively small truck could have backed it up.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

100% agreed. I stated on one of the various threads, that may or may not have contained a member or two losing his shit, that the 12.6 sale was great for the hobby. Also stated based on the scans that the card appeared over graded. That someone can spend that on a card is incredible and while it potentially makes it harder for me to buy stuff, it shows that the card industry, which not long ago was simply a hobby, is being taken very seriously.

No issue with $12.6 million for a baseball card. My only issue is that the card is overgraded (which is not based on my opinion of what a 9.5 should be, but the actual published standards of the grader themselves who have ignored their own standards for some reason. Can't image what that reason is...) and the laughable appeal to Mr. Mint's authority. The pumpers will not only ignore any reality that doesn't sync up with the agenda, they will go ballistic if confronted with it.


Whether it's good or not, I'd say it's probably good for the industry and bad for the hobby. Depends entirely on how one sees cards, as a relaxed hobby or an industry to generate revenues.

Neither of which, personally, I find wrong or assign any moral value too. I've never been in the market for a 52 Mantle in EX or better condition so it doesn't affect me, I'm just again complete bullshit being passed off as true. Apparently this is a hot take in the hobby these days. As there is no moral value in this being about profiteering or 'true collecting' people could just be honest about their objective instead of making crap up, denying blatant facts, lying about what others have said, and acting as if Mr. Mint's marketing statements are objective reality. "I don't care if SGC has overhyped the grade and Mr. Mint was a lying scumbag, I believe this sale will help pump the top end of the market and I stand to profit from this; what's good for me is good for me and that is what matters to me" would be a reasonable take.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Man, in the day who knew, eh John? Even with a relatively small truck could have backed it up.

Agree, and less than 3 years ago, lol. I just can’t get the $306,000 for a SGC 5 52 Mantle.

[Eric72]

I think some people are thinking along these lines:

Anyone who can be suckered by hype and overpay for a misgraded card doesn't deserve $12.6 million in disposable hobby income.

It's a flawed mindset, of course. However, I can see more than a few people adopting it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Agree, and less than 3 years ago, lol. I just can’t get the $306,000 for a SGC 5 52 Mantle.

It's hard to get one's head around, elite centering and all.

[JustinD]

Wow, this one spun off like the comment section on an opinion piece in the editorial section.

personal opinions only and not even worth 2 cents:

• Would I have bought it if I had the money - No.
• Would I have given away all my savings instead to meet the current socialistic dream program agenda and pat myself on the back with the usual follow up Ted Talk about how awesome I am? - No.
• Would I have spent it likely on something else that someone would likely consider more wasteful like a garage with an F40, F50, and an Enzo and had maybe enough to start a decent house next to the garage? - more than likely, we all have vices.

Honestly, it was sold in a free market auction and as long as it's paid for in the end that's what it was worth that day, tomorrow it could be more or less. I have no arguments.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

No issue with $12.6 million for a baseball card. My only issue is that the card is overgraded (which is not based on my opinion of what a 9.5 should be, but the actual published standards of the grader themselves who have ignored their own standards for some reason. Can't image what that reason is...) and the laughable appeal to Mr. Mint's authority. The pumpers will not only ignore any reality that doesn't sync up with the agenda, they will go ballistic if confronted with it.


Whether it's good or not, I'd say it's probably good for the industry and bad for the hobby. Depends entirely on how one sees cards, as a relaxed hobby or an industry to generate revenues.

Neither of which, personally, I find wrong or assign any moral value too. I've never been in the market for a 52 Mantle in EX or better condition so it doesn't affect me, I'm just again complete bullshit being passed off as true. Apparently this is a hot take in the hobby these days. As there is no moral value in this being about profiteering or 'true collecting' people could just be honest about their objective instead of making crap up, denying blatant facts, lying about what others have said, and acting as if Mr. Mint's marketing statements are objective reality. "I don't care if SGC has overhyped the grade and Mr. Mint was a lying scumbag, I believe this sale will help pump the top end of the market and I stand to profit from this; what's good for me is good for me and that is what matters to me" would be a reasonable take.

Yes to this. The card is overgraded and was a PR move for everyone involved. Is this any worse or any better than the BS that takes place with TPG slabbing bad cards hand over fist for insiders? The whole grading game is a steaming pile. The grade of 9.5 simply illustrates what we all know but fewer can admit, that grading is far from perfect. It does permit for manipulation of the market/hobby/industry when not done 100% ethically.

I think the sale shows health in the world of cards. With any market that fluctuates, the best time to buy is not the best time to sell. When prices were more stagnant it was always a great time to buy and sell. Now it is a timing thing. Now you have pumpers who unhinge easily, investors and flippers. The hobby is no longer just dealers and collectors. There is more volatility and there is more money.

Like you I am not in this area of the hobby. Doing 5 figures on a card would be a stretch for me. I still like seeing vintage cards like this one sell for obscene numbers. I am not envious or angry that I cannot play too. Happy doing what I do the way I do it.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Happy doing what I do the way I do it.

This. Otherwise, time to find another hobby.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

This. Otherwise, time to find another hobby.

Exactly. We must always be able adapt.

[Jetsfan]

I hope this isn’t hijacking the thread, but I am curious where folks think the 52T Mantle will be at price wise in the next 5-10 years. I personally think that given the significant price increases across the board in the last few years that we may be in a few years of price stabilization. Hard to envision much of a price decrease in the next 5-10 years. However, I do share the concerns mentioned by some that current teenagers may not hold the card in the same esteem that many in the 30-70 year olds do. I do think it would be fun to come back to this thread over the next few years and see how close our predictions are.

Adam

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Jetsfan

I hope this isn’t hijacking the thread, but I am curious where folks think the 52T Mantle will be at price wise in the next 5-10 years. I personally think that given the significant price increases across the board in the last few years that we may be in a few years of price stabilization. Hard to envision much of a price decrease in the next 5-10 years. However, I do share the concerns mentioned by some that current teenagers may not hold the card in the same esteem that many in the 30-70 year olds do. I do think it would be fun to come back to this thread over the next few years and see how close our predictions are.

Adam

Slower but still steady increases is my prediction on the icon cards like this. I never saw Ruth or Cobb play but still hold their stuff in high esteem. Who knows though.