1952 Rosen Mantle SGC 9.5 Final Price – Too high, too low, just right?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Go fuck yourself

Ryan Hotchkiss

Misreads a post and uses that misreading to criticize people. Responds by cussing out the person who points this out and is factually correct.

What is it about this card that makes people go crazy? It’s a unique phenomenon.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by G1911

Misreads a post and uses that misreading to criticize people. Responds by cussing out the person who points this out and is factually correct.

What is it about this card that makes people go crazy? It’s a unique phenomenon.

Yeah agree it drives people crazy - like I can’t figure out why you seriously spend time to go out of your way to hate on it. It’s the most iconic post-war card. Accept that fact and move in with it and you’ll be happier. Your pop and non rc arguments against the card are a bit like yogi’s no on ever goes there anymore because it’s too crowded.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by G1911

...What is it about this card that makes people go crazy?

In my opinion, the large sums of money which typically trade hands these days when the card is bought/sold.

Quite a few people here remember a time when a lower grade '52 Mantle was somewhat attainable. That ship has now sailed for many of us. Some people get on with their lives. For others, it continues to grind their gears.

To me, it underscores an often valid maxim; the worst regrets we have in life revolve around things we didn't do.

Yep, I should have bought that card when I had the chance. I didn't. Oh, well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

In my opinion, the large sums of money which typically trade hands these days when the card is bought/sold.

Quite a few people here remember a time when a lower grade '52 Mantle was somewhat attainable. That ship has now sailed for many of us. Some people get on with their lives. For others, it continues to grind their gears.

To me, it underscores an often valid maxim; the worst regrets we have in life revolve around things we didn't do.

Yep, I should have bought that card when I had the chance. I didn't. Oh, well.

I have sold many cards I should have kept, but by far the bigger regrets are the ones not purchased.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

Misreads a post and uses that misreading to criticize people. Responds by cussing out the person who points this out and is factually correct.

What is it about this card that makes people go crazy? It’s a unique phenomenon.

Actually I don't think it is just this card. I think it is certain people. I think long gone are the days where collecting cards was a hobby. Sure in 52 it was a hobby. Maybe even until the early 80s. In a short time it became an industry and there are a lot of people who have a lot of money invested. And that figure is all relative based on one's economic status. Either way, it has certainly brought out a great deal of sensitivity and shown sides of people that might not otherwise have been seen.

It is too bad that now we can now reduce fighting and unprovoked off base aggression to cards. Maybe those who keep coming unglued should take a time out and catch their collective and collector breaths. Someone's Sun was wrecked and now we got two collectors whose entire Tuesdays have been decimated due to a discussion over a baseball card. Really?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Actually I don't think it is just this card. I think it is certain people. I think long gone are the days where collecting cards was a hobby. Sure in 52 it was a hobby. Maybe even until the early 80s. In a short time it became an industry and there are a lot of people who have a lot of money invested. And that figure is all relative based on one's economic status. Either way, it has certainly brought out a great deal of sensitivity and shown sides of people that might not otherwise have been seen.

It is too bad that now we can now reduce fighting and unprovoked off base aggression to cards. Maybe those who keep coming unglued should take a time out and catch their collective and collector breaths. Someone's Sun was wrecked and now we got two collectors whose entire Tuesdays have been decimated due to a discussion over a baseball card. Really?

I agree with you and the evolution into a investment area and ego measuring contest. This card in particular seems to being out the worst though. Even threads about the trimmed Wagner don’t have such deranged fury as these do. When a Wagner or a Ruth sells for a ton of money, it’s a fairly benign thread. The Mantle seems to bring out the hair trigger tempers that just cannot take any hint of a different opinion that isn’t about pumping up the market through the roof without flipping out. Can’t wait for the next person to go nuts over an inconvenient fact.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree with you and the evolution into a investment area and ego measuring contest. This card in particular seems to being out the worst though. Even threads about the trimmed Wagner don’t have such deranged fury as these do. When a Wagner or a Ruth sells for a ton of money, it’s a fairly benign thread. The Mantle seems to bring out the hair trigger tempers that just cannot take any hint of a different opinion that isn’t about pumping up the market through the roof without flipping out. Can’t wait for the next person to go nuts over an inconvenient fact.

It is actually pretty comical reading grown men come unhinged needlessly defending a card. A real popcorn moment.

How was your Tuesday, by the way? As good or better than your Sunday?

[Directly]

I can remember Al Rosen *Mr. Mint" after his amazing 1952 High number find selling a nice 52 Mantle for $1,500 when the national was in St Louis. He probably had around 100 at the time, so has to be some other 9-10's in the bunch? The buyer told me to go get me one, but I didn't--oh well?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

It is actually pretty comical reading grown men come unhinged needlessly defending a card. A real popcorn moment.

How was your Tuesday, by the way? As good or better than your Sunday?

None of us are perfect, one of my imperfections is that I enjoy watching adults meltdown over any hint of dissent to their narratives, especially when the offending statement is a statement of actual fact and not even a dissenting opinion directly. That many adults are outraged when they discover that other people do not have the former's financial investments as the driver of the later's views is endlessly fascinating.

It's been a lovely Tuesday. Work was undramatic, I got lunch with a friend and baseball historian, and we disagreed on some points with reasonable debate and free of any meltdowns or screeching. I pulled down my 53 Topps master set (p-vg and treasonously raw) for cataloguing the black/white text variations in my spreadsheets, and mailed out some tobacco cards to a hobby pal. I'm spending the night curled up with a warm coffee and my old friend Hesiod. While it would have been a nice bonus if others pumped the stocks I'm holding and we had an up day on the market instead of a down one, it has not ruined my day or made it worse that others are not putting their efforts into driving narratives financially beneficial to myself. I never even felt the desire to spew invective at people for saying things that are true but I wish were not true. I hope that yours also did not contain unbridled rage when confronted with people who do not share a fiscal interest you have or an inconvenient fact, sir.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

None of us are perfect, one of my imperfections is that I enjoy watching adults meltdown over any hint of dissent to their narratives, especially when the offending statement is a statement of actual fact and not even a dissenting opinion directly. That many adults are outraged when they discover that other people do not have the former's financial investments as the driver of the later's views is endlessly fascinating.

It's been a lovely Tuesday. Work was undramatic, I got lunch with a friend and baseball historian, and we disagreed on some points with reasonable debate and free of any meltdowns or screeching. I pulled down my 53 Topps master set (p-vg and treasonously raw) for cataloguing the black/white text variations in my spreadsheets, and mailed out some tobacco cards to a hobby pal. I'm spending the night curled up with a warm coffee and my old friend Hesiod. While it would have been a nice bonus if others pumped the stocks I'm holding and we had an up day on the market instead of a down one, it has not ruined my day or made it worse that others are not putting their efforts into driving narratives financially beneficial to myself. I never even felt the desire to spew invective at people for saying things that are true but I wish were not true. I hope that yours also did not contain unbridled rage when confronted with people who do not share a fiscal interest you have or an inconvenient fact, sir.

Well facts are very hard for some to accept. Inward looking eyeballs will do that to one's perspective.

So let me get this straight Greg...at no time did you or your friend feel the urge to condemn one another for dissenting view points? No F Offs were exchanged? Surely there had to be bile in that discussion so one of you had to be thinking to tell the other to F Off, no? I am glad to hear that you did not feel compelled to push an elderly lady down a staircase because your portfolio did not appreciate today. I am guessing it was not too hard to resist.

And thank you for asking. I had a great Tuesday. I was productive at work. Was able to cut out a few hours early, in fact. I would have been able to leave earlier had I not been sucked in by two grown men losing it here. Hit the gym, ran a few errands and had dinner at home with the wife, kid and dog. Caught up with each others' day and spent an hour looking at my severely off center (60/40 both ways) 1953 Bowman set to see which cards I needed to upgrade due to too much corner wear. Not once did I think to check the market, look on Zillow to see if my home went up or down in value or get upset that there has been no appreciable increase in the value of my Auth 52 Topps Mantle.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Well facts are very hard for some to accept. Inward looking eyeballs will do that to one's perspective.

So let me get this straight Greg...at no time did you or your friend feel the urge to condemn one another for dissenting view points? No F Offs were exchanged? Surely there had to be bile in that discussion so one of you had to be thinking to tell the other to F Off, no? I am glad to hear that you did not feel compelled to push an elderly lady down a staircase because your portfolio did not appreciate today. I am guessing it was not too hard to resist.

And thank you for asking. I had a great Tuesday. I was productive at work. Was able to cut out a few hours early, in fact. I would have been able to leave earlier had I not been sucked in by two grown men losing it here. Hit the gym, ran a few errands and had dinner at home with the wife, kid and dog. Caught up with each others' day and spent an hour looking at my severely off center (60/40 both ways) 1953 Bowman set to see which cards I needed to upgrade due to too much corner wear. Not once did I think to check the market, look on Zillow to see if my home went up or down in value or get upset that there has been no appreciable increase in the value of my Auth 52 Topps Mantle.

I know it sounds crazy, but there was no F off situation! I even had to stand factually corrected and abandon an argument when I misrecalled a statistic and Baseball-Reference proved me factually wrong. We even disagreed on faith as my reverent agnosticism does not align with his Catholicism. No screeching was had nor was anyone condemned to Hell.

Sounds like a good day to me, but I must express some surprise at one component. You mean you, sir, own a 52 Topps Mantle but are NOT ignoring inconvenient facts, what people you might be criticizing have actually said to argue against something they did not say but is easier to attack, and abandoning all dignity and connection to reality to spew complete fiction mixed with outraged fury to serve the obvious purpose of pumping the end of the market you are invested in and this card in particular? That is possible?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Misreads a post and uses that misreading to criticize people. Responds by cussing out the person who points this out and is factually correct.

What is it about this card that makes people go crazy? It’s a unique phenomenon.

Some other random musings:

We often fall into the trap of binary thinking. Issues are complex. People are complex. I know people who are filthy rich but whose idea of a fine night out is a trip to In N Out for a burger and fries (hint: ask for animal fries with chopped chilis). I know people who will drop everything to help a friend but whose politics are of the "let them eat cake" variety. It isn't all one thing or all the opposite.

I agree that we are really still ramping up as a transition to an alternative asset class. Look at the money not only pouring into the hobby infrastructure but also professionalizing it. We're seeing vertical integration, scaling of operations, etc. Then there are the rising marketplaces like Whatnot that are democratizing the live auction experience. I would not be surprised to see a National moving closer to the Comicon model in the next decade. It all points to a cross-over from a low-brow to a high-brow vision of collecting.

The Mantle is a great example of the art-like transition of the market. You can own a work by Roy Lichtenstein on a budget, but it will be a print or serigraph, not an original canvas. Very few could piss in the tall weeds with the big dogs who chased down the 9.5, but lots of us could get into a low-grade 52 T Mantle with some savings and liquidating of existing cards.

Which brings me to my next point, why people react so strongly. It is frustration. I've been there too. I was so frustrated with card prices 15 years ago that I stopped buying mainstream baseball cards and moved to regionals and Exhibits. I wish I'd spent some of that money on a midgrade Mantle when it was still a middle-class card, but I was too butt-hurt about not being able to afford every card I wanted that I just pulled a Cartman: "screw you guys, I'm going home."



Seems to me being all bent out of shape over someone else's good fortune is a waste of time and only hurts you; the rich guy who bought the card doesn't care one iota that you are frustrated. Won't do anything except make you mad. It's all just stuff; what is real is how we react to it. We can control that. Like James Brown sang: "You don't miss nothing you never had but you miss so much you wish you could get, hah!"

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

[IMG]

Which brings me to my next point, why people react so strongly. It is frustration. I've been there too. I was so frustrated with card prices 15 years ago that I stopped buying mainstream baseball cards and moved to regionals and Exhibits. I wish I'd spent some of that money on a midgrade Mantle when it was still a middle-class card, but I was too butt-hurt about not being able to afford every card I wanted that I just pulled a Cartman: "screw you guys, I'm going home."

Seems to me being all bent out of shape over someone else's good fortune is a waste of time and only hurts you; the rich guy who bought the card doesn't care one iota that you are frustrated. Won't do anything except make you mad. It's all just stuff; what is real is how we react to it. We can control that. Like James Brown sang: "You don't miss nothing you never had but you miss so much you wish you could get, hah!"

I personally do not agree that there is anything wrong with spending $12 million on a card, though I never would and do not care at all what anyone but myself does with their money. You want to spend a mansion’s worth of money on a mass produced cardboard picture, go ahead. God bless America.

However, the “butt-hurt” and “bent out of shape” replies are people openly cheering for higher and higher prices, not these folks. We’ve had two people lose it, both clearly on this side. None of the people who have said they think spending $12,000,000 on a card is absurd have flipped out, cussed out people who were factually correct but corrected their BS, or posted dishonest accusatory rants straight up lying about what has actually been said in the transcripts here.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

I personally do not agree that there is anything wrong with spending $12 million on a card, though I never would and do not care at all what anyone but myself does with their money. You want to spend a mansion’s worth of money on a mass produced cardboard picture, go ahead. God bless America.

However, the “butt-hurt” and “bent out of shape” replies are people openly cheering for higher and higher prices, not these folks. We’ve had two people lose it, both clearly on this side. None of the people who have said they think spending $12,000,000 on a card is absurd have flipped out, cussed out people who were factually correct but corrected their BS, or posted dishonest accusatory rants straight up lying about what has actually been said in the transcripts here.

100% agreed. I stated on one of the various threads, that may or may not have contained a member or two losing his shit, that the 12.6 sale was great for the hobby. Also stated based on the scans that the card appeared over graded. That someone can spend that on a card is incredible and while it potentially makes it harder for me to buy stuff, it shows that the card industry, which not long ago was simply a hobby, is being taken very seriously.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

100% agreed. I stated on one of the various threads, that may or may not have contained a member or two losing his shit, that the 12.6 sale was great for the hobby. Also stated based on the scans that the card appeared over graded. That someone can spend that on a card is incredible and while it potentially makes it harder for me to buy stuff, it shows that the card industry, which not long ago was simply a hobby, is being taken very seriously.

It's not great for the hobby.

It's great for sellers and auction houses and holders of Ruth, Wagner & Mantle.

It's pretty awful for collectors.

They have just found out they will never get certain cards...and possibly all levels, PSA1 thru 10.

Now that being said collectors HAVE to adjust their mindset and go to Authentic, Altered, Miscut, etc. If they want these cards. It's still the same card, just a lot worse shape, kind of like your wife when you first married her.

You still love her, she just ain't Mint10 anymore, get used to it, live with it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We will never know, but it would be fascinating to know what the sale price would have been if it had been graded a 9 (probably more accurate given the toning) and not designated as the world's greatest 311. The cynic in me says a significant amount less.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We will never know, but it would be fascinating to know what the sale price would have been if it had been graded a 9 (probably more accurate given the toning) and not designated as the world's greatest 311. The cynic in me says a significant amount less.

With a PSA 8 going for almost 3 million quite some time ago now. I think if it had been a PSA 9 with the same provenance it may well still have done 12.6.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

It's not great for the hobby.

It's great for sellers and auction houses and holders of Ruth, Wagner & Mantle.

It's pretty awful for collectors.

They have just found out they will never get certain cards...and possibly all levels, PSA1 thru 10.

Now that being said collectors HAVE to adjust their mindset and go to Authentic, Altered, Miscut, etc. If they want these cards. It's still the same card, just a lot worse shape, kind of like your wife when you first married her.

You still love her, she just ain't Mint10 anymore, get used to it, live with it.

I understand your perspective but I do not think that every card in grades 1 - 10 will now jump up because someone spent 12.6 on an over graded 52 Mantle. The huge money that has poured in has been on elite caliber cards that guys like you and me were never going to be in the market for. Does this mean that a 54 T Snider in PSA 6.5 will be unattainable?

The market overall has already seen huge appreciation over the last 2 plus years. And like many things that go up they can go down and back up again. For most cards, prices are down sharply from where they were at the highs, yet we still have at least 2 people who did not care and slugged it out for the 9.5 Mantle. Sales of T206 Wagners have gone through the roof too. If you are referring to those cards, you are right. Most collectors are SOL. But they have been SOL well before the sale of the 52 Mantle in the 9.5.

Bottom line is that nothing stays the same. Change is inevitable. Adapt or be left behind. I have made my choice.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I understand your perspective but I do not think that every card in grades 1 - 10 will now jump up because someone spent 12.6 on an over graded 52 Mantle. The huge money that has poured in has been on elite caliber cards that guys like you and me were never going to be in the market for. Does this mean that a 54 T Snider in PSA 6.5 will be unattainable?

The market overall has already seen huge appreciation over the last 2 plus years. And like many things that go up they can go down and back up again. For most cards, prices are down sharply from where they were at the highs, yet we still have at least 2 people who did not care and slugged it out for the 9.5 Mantle. Sales of T206 Wagners have gone through the roof too. If you are referring to those cards, you are right. Most collectors are SOL. But they have been SOL well before the sale of the 52 Mantle in the 9.5.

Bottom line is that nothing stays the same. Change is inevitable. Adapt or be left behind. I have made my choice.

Chase the one I feel skewed the market and made it untouchable for a while for many was the SGC 5 52 Mantle Sale in REA last month for $306,000. That killed a lot of guys' chances for the time being for being able to obtain one in a 5 or less. I feel it’s the reason why guys are asking, and cards are selling in major auction houses the same grade and less, grades 1-5, for ridiculous numbers for grades 1-3.

To me that SGC 5 1952 Mantle was the game changer. I can’t make any sense of the price it sold for, $306,000.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

100% agreed. I stated on one of the various threads, that may or may not have contained a member or two losing his shit, that the 12.6 sale was great for the hobby. Also stated based on the scans that the card appeared over graded. That someone can spend that on a card is incredible and while it potentially makes it harder for me to buy stuff, it shows that the card industry, which not long ago was simply a hobby, is being taken very seriously.

No issue with $12.6 million for a baseball card. My only issue is that the card is overgraded (which is not based on my opinion of what a 9.5 should be, but the actual published standards of the grader themselves who have ignored their own standards for some reason. Can't image what that reason is...) and the laughable appeal to Mr. Mint's authority. The pumpers will not only ignore any reality that doesn't sync up with the agenda, they will go ballistic if confronted with it.


Whether it's good or not, I'd say it's probably good for the industry and bad for the hobby. Depends entirely on how one sees cards, as a relaxed hobby or an industry to generate revenues.

Neither of which, personally, I find wrong or assign any moral value too. I've never been in the market for a 52 Mantle in EX or better condition so it doesn't affect me, I'm just again complete bullshit being passed off as true. Apparently this is a hot take in the hobby these days. As there is no moral value in this being about profiteering or 'true collecting' people could just be honest about their objective instead of making crap up, denying blatant facts, lying about what others have said, and acting as if Mr. Mint's marketing statements are objective reality. "I don't care if SGC has overhyped the grade and Mr. Mint was a lying scumbag, I believe this sale will help pump the top end of the market and I stand to profit from this; what's good for me is good for me and that is what matters to me" would be a reasonable take.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

No issue with $12.6 million for a baseball card. My only issue is that the card is overgraded (which is not based on my opinion of what a 9.5 should be, but the actual published standards of the grader themselves who have ignored their own standards for some reason. Can't image what that reason is...) and the laughable appeal to Mr. Mint's authority. The pumpers will not only ignore any reality that doesn't sync up with the agenda, they will go ballistic if confronted with it.


Whether it's good or not, I'd say it's probably good for the industry and bad for the hobby. Depends entirely on how one sees cards, as a relaxed hobby or an industry to generate revenues.

Neither of which, personally, I find wrong or assign any moral value too. I've never been in the market for a 52 Mantle in EX or better condition so it doesn't affect me, I'm just again complete bullshit being passed off as true. Apparently this is a hot take in the hobby these days. As there is no moral value in this being about profiteering or 'true collecting' people could just be honest about their objective instead of making crap up, denying blatant facts, lying about what others have said, and acting as if Mr. Mint's marketing statements are objective reality. "I don't care if SGC has overhyped the grade and Mr. Mint was a lying scumbag, I believe this sale will help pump the top end of the market and I stand to profit from this; what's good for me is good for me and that is what matters to me" would be a reasonable take.

Yes to this. The card is overgraded and was a PR move for everyone involved. Is this any worse or any better than the BS that takes place with TPG slabbing bad cards hand over fist for insiders? The whole grading game is a steaming pile. The grade of 9.5 simply illustrates what we all know but fewer can admit, that grading is far from perfect. It does permit for manipulation of the market/hobby/industry when not done 100% ethically.

I think the sale shows health in the world of cards. With any market that fluctuates, the best time to buy is not the best time to sell. When prices were more stagnant it was always a great time to buy and sell. Now it is a timing thing. Now you have pumpers who unhinge easily, investors and flippers. The hobby is no longer just dealers and collectors. There is more volatility and there is more money.

Like you I am not in this area of the hobby. Doing 5 figures on a card would be a stretch for me. I still like seeing vintage cards like this one sell for obscene numbers. I am not envious or angry that I cannot play too. Happy doing what I do the way I do it.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Happy doing what I do the way I do it.

This. Otherwise, time to find another hobby.