Joe Orlando is lying fakes flips look real..

[MW1]

Originally Posted by ergoism

He told me they were fabricated. He may be lying, I really don't care at this point. I've had multiple conversations at length with the Secret Service about this guy. My knowledge of him and his scams runs much deeper than trying to determine whether or not it would make sense for him to do what he does. If someone has scammed the hobby for 2 or 3 million dollars and it's all in cash in Mexico, I'm not sure where he would start his legitimate business.

Here's my bottom line:
If I posted the original pictures with an equal number of legitimate scans, I highly doubt anyone would be able to tell which cards were real/fake strictly based on the appearance of the slabs.

I see frosting on legitimate slabs all the time. Look at the scans below, are any of these cards compromised?

Evan,

You bring up an important point here that should not be understated. Whenever you are spending money on graded sports cards--especially if that sum is an excess of $1000--it pays to know who the seller is. If you don't know, ask for some references or explore that seller's online sales history. There is a huge difference between purchasing graded cards from a knowledgeable dealer who has been in business for 25 or more years and a upstart seller on eBay whose source for inventory is craigslist. Know your source. And know that if you try to buy 1986 Fleer Michael Jordans or 1952 Topps Mickey Mantles for a mere fraction of their value, that there's a very good chance they're not legitimate, the holder and flip notwithstanding.

[bbcemporium]

Definitely concerning to see the crook is perfecting his art.

Look at this example of the fake Bird/Johnson rookie



Here is the scan of the legitimate example. Notice the perforation alignment between the two cards:



It looks like the fake example was recently sold via an eBay auction. Here is the scan from the auction. The seller either purposely or accidentally didn't include the full holder in the scan. Notice how the perforation alignment matches the fake:



Example number 2 - Here is a scan of the fake Gary Carter rookie



Here is a scan of the legitimate version, notice the spot or break in the black line under the word Giants:



Here is a Probstein auction scan of the legitimate version:



Here is another Probstein auction scan of the fake version:



Regardless of whether the crook is fabricating his own cases or reusing PSA cases, the vast majority of collectors are unable to spot these. Buying from reputable dealers and avoiding cards at 60% value is good advice, but definitely not error-proof, as these cards are making their way into legitimate venues.

[MW1]

bbcemporium,

Thank you for posting the comparisons. It seems obvious to me that the small security tabs or "nubs" are popped/cloudy on the holders that have been cracked and clear on the holders that are legitimately sealed by PSA. I hope others can see this.

[bbcemporium]

Yes, you can see this clearly on the nubs directly under the flip.

[MattyC]

Just wanted to add, as someone above mentioned, that one or two patches of frosting and even stress cracks at slab corners and by the circular posts of a slab are all pretty common right off the press at PSA. But those circular posts should be clear, not cloudy, as noted above. I've been handed re-holdered cards in their customer lobby that exhibit frosting, stress cracks, and even a rough nub on the side that could be misconstrued as an area where someone tried to force open the holder (this latter attribute is not the case with the new holder). Just things for people to keep in mind so as not to wind up passing on a good card; their cust service people said it's when frosting runs the length of one side that it's a no-no, as opposed to a random inch-long area in one isolated place.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ergoism

He told me they were fabricated. He may be lying, I really don't care at this point. I've had multiple conversations at length with the Secret Service about this guy. My knowledge of him and his scams runs much deeper than trying to determine whether or not it would make sense for him to do what he does. If someone has scammed the hobby for 2 or 3 million dollars and it's all in cash in Mexico, I'm not sure where he would start his legitimate business.

Here's my bottom line:
If I posted the original pictures with an equal number of legitimate scans, I highly doubt anyone would be able to tell which cards were real/fake strictly based on the appearance of the slabs.

I see frosting on legitimate slabs all the time. Look at the scans below, are any of these cards compromised?

Don't know if the slab has been compromised but that is a awesome 1952 Bowman Bill Werle missing the W error. I have one only not that nice.

[ullmandds]

those are some scary modern fakes!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MW1

bbcemporium,

Thank you for posting the comparisons. It seems obvious to me that the small security tabs or "nubs" are popped/cloudy on the holders that have been cracked and clear on the holders that are legitimately sealed by PSA. I hope others can see this.

On the carter yes not so much on others like schmidt 10.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Don't know if the slab has been compromised but that is a awesome 1952 Bowman Bill Werle missing the W error. I have one only not that nice.

Thanks Ben. Evan was being a wiseguy in his post. I submitted the Werle myself. It's legitimate.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

On the carter yes not so much on others like schmidt 10.

Look at the top of the holder. I wonder if the Schmidt isn't a legitimate 8 with a different (PSA 10) flip slid in along the top edge.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

those are some scary modern fakes!

Who says they are fakes? They could very well be legitimate cards that are either 8s or trimmed.

[bbcemporium]

For reference, here are Schmidt and Robinson comparisons.

Fake:


Authentic (I think):


Fake:


Authentic (I think):

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by MW1

... if you collect pre-WWII cards, none of this likely applies to your collection.

why is this?

[MW1]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

why is this?

Not many fakes, from this source, come from this time period.

[bbcemporium]

Originally Posted by MW1

Not many fakes, from this source, come from this time period.

I'm pretty sure he also "makes" t206 Cobbs and 33 Goudey Ruths and Gehrigs.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MW1

Not many fakes, from this source, come from this time period.

The scammer, in my many conversations with him, told me he didn't do pre-war as the other high end cards that are post war are much easier to pass off.

He might make T206 Cobbs or Ruth Goudeys but that isn't the majority of what he does. Also, it seems his favorite, or one of his favorite playgrounds, is Craigslist...

[bbcemporium]

I find it a little odd this guy is having multiple conversations with people within the hobby discussing the fraud he is perpetrating. Maybe he just wants to brag about his work.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I've seen it mentioned several times now, but how does buying from a reputable dealer solve the problem? What’s to stop a reputable dealer from unknowingly buying one of these fakes for re-sell thinking it's legit?

Edited to add: Are reputable dealers immune to scams or something?

[MattyC]

I'd say for two reasons...

Reputable dealers and PSA Authorized dealers tend to have a better eye at spotting fakes than the average collector. One must be armed with considerable knowledge and experience to spot these fakes and veteran reputable dealers of PSA cards stand to have that knowledge and experience moreso than a random seller on Craigslist or eBay. Is it possible one can slip by the goalie, so to speak, sure, but then...

A reputable dealer stands to care more about his reputation and longterm business than a one-time score; a no-hassle return policy goes a long way when we are talking about these fake slabs.

I don't think anyone is asserting veteran reputable dealers are 100% inoculated against this scam, but in the interest of mitigation before and after a scam they are a prudent choice.

PS: like the sig line, very funny!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Hey, Matt. I can see your point, but I think most collectors (well, at least I do) get a card in the mail, look at it, possibly scan it, and then it goes into their safe or vault (or wherever) and they rarely look at it again. My point is, if it got past the dealer and the purchaser, it probably won't be realized that it's a fake for a long time to come (and it sounds like a lot of these are getting by). If you realized it immediately after purchase, sure they would have to take it back. And if it's an eBay purchase, they wouldn't have a choice - reputable dealer or not. But even any reputable dealer isn't going to guarantee a card past a certain time period, are they?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bbcemporium

I find it a little odd this guy is having multiple conversations with people within the hobby discussing the fraud he is perpetrating. Maybe he just wants to brag about his work.

I agree. I don't know how many people he reached out to but I know Evan and I had a lot of conversations with him. He uses one of those phone jack devices that can't be traced. One time when he called me I tried to conference in the Secret Service covertly and it didn't work. I tried though....Yes, I believe he is somewhat of a braggart.

He uses pawns to sell his stuff and never lets anyone too close. Buying from a very known and trusted source is a good way (not foolproof) to avoid his fraud.

He preys on the greedy and inexperienced. As has been said, when you see a high end card being sold for less than half it's value, be very, very wary.

[MattyC]

David,

Good question-- there are a lot of high dollar card sellers who are definitely the stand-up type to honor a return at any point down the line, if it was discovered they missed a fake. Those are the guys I like to deal with. They highly value a loyal customer who pays promptly, who could be worth so much over the years of a relationship; if it became known they passed along a high-dollar fake even a year down the line, they would remember the sale and want to maintain that relationship. I've been told this directly by a few of my favorite sellers.

Personally, because I am rather risk averse on the subject, in addition to buying from known trusted sources, I will always take a high dollar card into PSA for a quick look-- I live close enough to drive the card down and it gives me peace of mind. This way I know for sure upon receipt of the card. I couldn't just put it away without that final check by the TPG itself. Might be overkill but it lets me sleep easy.

Best,

Matt

[Jdoggs]

Have there been any fakes detected in the new PSA holders?

[glynparson]

to justify Levi asking more than the average dealer. He is not going anywhere and he and Jimmy will know the card is fake and it would never get offered for sale. There are others that fall into this category as well.

[Jdoggs]

yes with Levi you know you are getting the real thing.

[Rollingstone206]

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[brob28]

Originally Posted by Leon

The scammer, in my many conversations with him, told me he didn't do pre-war as the other high end cards that are post war are much easier to pass off.

He might make T206 Cobbs or Ruth Goudeys but that isn't the majority of what he does. Also, it seems his favorite, or one of his favorite playgrounds, is Craigslist...

This makes sense, aging a forgery of a pre-war card would take some extra work that he would not need to do in the post war card world. Guys, thanks so much for sharing this information, it's scary stuff & the knowledge shared helps a lot.

[ezez420]

Just curious do the bar codes scan on the fake flips? Nobody mentioned this.

goldbullion2012@gmail.com

Ha I remember that braggert guy...I remember people getting locked up because of him. He finds people on ebay and CL to list items for him. Preys on the greedy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by brob28

This makes sense, aging a forgery of a pre-war card would take some extra work that he would not need to do in the post war card world. Guys, thanks so much for sharing this information, it's scary stuff & the knowledge shared helps a lot.

I have seen a 33 Gehrig in 8 that is fake also had other cards in the purchase 69 Reggie 9 and a few others... In fact I had purchased it and needed to get a refund. Had to get the FBI involved.

The flips under a LOUPE look different. They have laser dots that normal flips don;'t have. This was probably 10 or 11 months ago. Not sure what they have done now.

[Rollingstone206]

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[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by MW1

There really is nothing more nefarious transpiring here than PSA holders being opened and fake flips/cards being inserted. Use your powers of observation. Look carefully at the edges of the holder. Look at the contact points. Look at the four small slots that become cloudy when the holder is pried apart. Look at the edges where a sharp object has initially been inserted. The signs are all there. If you still don't see signs of tampering, look at the card itself. And if that doesn't work, pay close attention to the price. If it's 60% or less of retail and you're buying a PSA 10 or low population PSA 9, it's almost certainly a scam. Finally, if you collect pre-WWII cards, none of this likely applies to your collection.

what if offering 85% of the price or 80%.....you really got to stop focusing on 60% of the price....everyone out to save a dollar and lots of people wll pay 80% of market price...

If you buy a PSA graded card from an auction house and it turns out to be fake is there any recourse with PSA or the AH?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Hey, Matt. I can see your point, but I think most collectors (well, at least I do) get a card in the mail, look at it, possibly scan it, and then it goes into their safe or vault (or wherever) and they rarely look at it again. My point is, if it got past the dealer and the purchaser, it probably won't be realized that it's a fake for a long time to come (and it sounds like a lot of these are getting by). If you realized it immediately after purchase, sure they would have to take it back. And if it's an eBay purchase, they wouldn't have a choice - reputable dealer or not. But even any reputable dealer isn't going to guarantee a card past a certain time period, are they?

well that's the buyers fault, the buyer should have it checked out if worried about a fake..

[Rollingstone206]

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[WhenItWasAHobby]

If these scans are showing two different cards with the same cert number, then this thread is extremely disturbing to say the least. The alleged fakes look very real and the holders do not appear to be tampered with in my opinion.

Between this and the rampant problem of card doctoring, any collector who would choose to tie up a lot of money in high dollar PSA cards needs to have their heads examined.

[MattyC]

End of the day, the proliferation of knock-off Rolexes and Hermes bags does nothing to tarnish the luster, allure, and desirability of the real thing.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by MattyC

End of the day, the proliferation of knock-off Rolexes and Hermes bags does nothing to tarnish the luster, allure, and desirability of the real thing.

This is a terrible analogy...as the preponderance of fakes and knockoffs will most certainly deter many from even buying in the first place.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This is a terrible analogy...as the preponderance of fakes and knockoffs will most certainly deter many from even buying in the first place.

I politely disagree and agree with MattyC. I have never personally heard someone say "I am not buying a Rolex because of all of the fakes." On the contrary it could be argued that since they are being faked more people want real ones. They (real ones) must be really good if they are being faked.

[TanksAndSpartans]

I think the issue with the analogy is, that if you walk into a Rolex store, there is a 0% chance you are getting a fake. There really is nothing analogous that I can think of to walking into a Rolex store here.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This is a terrible analogy...as the preponderance of fakes and knockoffs will most certainly deter many from even buying in the first place.

I strongly and respectfully disagree. Anyone so inclined to buy an expensive sports card likely would be led by their desire to do the appropriate homework first. Any reputable auction house or PSA authorized dealer (707, etc.) would be a virtual guarantee of zero exposure to these fakes, fairly close to the aforementioned Rolex store-- the AH would make it right as they are concerned with longterm business and reputation, and the PSA authorized dealer would likely have a return policy and be able to spot a fake.

I am living proof that fakes do not necessarily deter a buyer. When I first decided to buy sports cards, I knew there would be fakes-- like with any desired item. I learned who the trusted sellers were and made sure to have the TPG review the cards after purchase for complete peace of mind. I was not deterred at all. I merely did the homework anyone should do with anything before spending money.

Bottom line, one can choose to react however they want to the existence of fakes. Some collectors find avoiding them a doable task, one that does not at all get in the way of enjoying the collecting they love.

I agree with Leon: that a card is being faked speaks volumes as to its desirability and the demand for it. Avoiding those fakes requires that a buyer seek out trustworthy points of sale. I would wager that the likes of REA and the biggest dealers in the hobby are as certain to ensure the buyer from fakes as the retail stores of Rolex, Gucci, and Ralph Lauren are to ensure their customers.

It's worth noting that in the face of these fakes, the card market is doing very well, and new collectors just embarking on their collections are connecting with fellow collectors every day-- great things for the hobby.

[Rollingstone206]

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[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Rollingstone206

Sean1125 just finished telling us he got caught up with forgeries. I can reasonably see someone ("Anyone") at a card show getting tricked by them at this level of sophistication. And, obviously others have been duped by these expensive forgeries or this thread wouldn't exist.

Now you're taking it a step further preaching exposure guarantees of Auction Houses and PSA authorized dealers yourself? For example the a dealer or AH might claim a card swap was done after the sale, same goes for PSA dealers, and PSA themself. It's a pretty hard thing to prove as a buyer. I know your treading on thin ice speaking absolutes on this subject.

right I agree, when it comes to money in life, people owing it or a dispute...is that the kind of thing that gets resolved easily? Always assume once you spend your money it will be hard to get back if you buy a fake and your expectations will match real life...

[glynparson]

but he is an admitted newer dealer and rather new to the hobby, comparing his knowledge to that of Levi and Jimmy, or Rob Lifson, or many others is a disservice to those very knowledgable men. Sean may get to their level someday but I doubt he thinks he is in their league as far as knowledge. A lot of cash does not equal knowledge.. Again not a slight at Sean but an endorsement of the others advanced knowledge. That said i believe he has demonstrated integrity and if he did get taken I am confident he would make the buyer whole.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I strongly and respectfully disagree. Anyone so inclined to buy an expensive sports card likely would be led by their desire to do the appropriate homework first. Any reputable auction house or PSA authorized dealer (707, etc.) would be a virtual guarantee of zero exposure to these fakes, fairly close to the aforementioned Rolex store-- the AH would make it right as they are concerned with longterm business and reputation, and the PSA authorized dealer would likely have a return policy and be able to spot a fake.

I am living proof that fakes do not necessarily deter a buyer. When I first decided to buy sports cards, I knew there would be fakes-- like with any desired item. I learned who the trusted sellers were and made sure to have the TPG review the cards after purchase for complete peace of mind. I was not deterred at all. I merely did the homework anyone should do with anything before spending money.

Bottom line, one can choose to react however they want to the existence of fakes. Some collectors find avoiding them a doable task, one that does not at all get in the way of enjoying the collecting they love.

I agree with Leon: that a card is being faked speaks volumes as to its desirability and the demand for it. Avoiding those fakes requires that a buyer seek out trustworthy points of sale. I would wager that the likes of REA and the biggest dealers in the hobby are as certain to ensure the buyer from fakes as the retail stores of Rolex, Gucci, and Ralph Lauren are to ensure their customers.

It's worth noting that in the face of these fakes, the card market is doing very well, and new collectors just embarking on their collections are connecting with fellow collectors every day-- great things for the hobby.

Well this is why we have communities like this to voice our own opinions.

You can walk into a "rolex" store...or a "coach" store and presumably you will be pretty assured you are getting the genuine article. What about how in China there are whole knockoff Apple stores that look identical to the real deal...yet are selling knockoffs.

When any of these items are then sold on the secondary market things can get dicier for the prospective buyer. At this point it becomes prudent to do your due diligence or you may get ripped off.

You can't just walk into a t206 store and order a presumably authentic psa 5 lobert. All available loberts have been preowned...or newly created/fake. So it now is up to the buyer to do his due diligence...or as many do hire A TPG'er to give you this assurance...and we all know this is not a sure thing either.

I got into collecting as a kid with the topps cards of the 50's-70's...these days I'd be reluctant to buy some raw modern cards because there are so many fakes and some are really really good!

So for me...the corruption in the hobby has dimmed my enthusiasm a bit...this is just me.

And I would bet that some who try to enter the hobby...or any hobby for that matter only to immediately get ripped off...may think twice about trying again.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

You can't just walk into a t206 store and order a presumably authentic psa 5 lobert. All available loberts have been preowned. So it now is up to the buyer to do his due dilligence...or as many do hire A TPG'er to give you this assurance...and we all know this is not a sure thing either.

Exactly. The provenance of 40 to 100+ year old cards is a lot different than Rolexes coming straight from the factory.

With that said, I'm not convinced that PSA adequately trains or vets their dealers for counterfeit detection of holders or cards that show up on the secondary market.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I strongly and respectfully disagree. Anyone so inclined to buy an expensive sports card likely would be led by their desire to do the appropriate homework first. Any reputable auction house or PSA authorized dealer (707, etc.) would be a virtual guarantee of zero exposure to these fakes, fairly close to the aforementioned Rolex store-- the AH would make it right as they are concerned with longterm business and reputation, and the PSA authorized dealer would likely have a return policy and be able to spot a fake.

I am living proof that fakes do not necessarily deter a buyer. When I first decided to buy sports cards, I knew there would be fakes-- like with any desired item. I learned who the trusted sellers were and made sure to have the TPG review the cards after purchase for complete peace of mind. I was not deterred at all. I merely did the homework anyone should do with anything before spending money.

Bottom line, one can choose to react however they want to the existence of fakes. Some collectors find avoiding them a doable task, one that does not at all get in the way of enjoying the collecting they love.

I agree with Leon: that a card is being faked speaks volumes as to its desirability and the demand for it. Avoiding those fakes requires that a buyer seek out trustworthy points of sale. I would wager that the likes of REA and the biggest dealers in the hobby are as certain to ensure the buyer from fakes as the retail stores of Rolex, Gucci, and Ralph Lauren are to ensure their customers.

It's worth noting that in the face of these fakes, the card market is doing very well, and new collectors just embarking on their collections are connecting with fellow collectors every day-- great things for the hobby.

Yes, one can avoid fakes, by exercising the type of diligence Matt describes. But no, one cannot avoid doctored cards.

[Rollingstone206]

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[Jdoggs]

Are the new PSA cases tamper free?

[Rollingstone206]

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[Rollingstone206]

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[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rollingstone206

Can someone explain sonic sealing?

I think they yell at the slabs then the slabs are so embarrassed they seal themselves.