The PSA8 Wagner... I don't get it.

[sylbry]

Good Friday to you all. This thought has been on my mind and at the moment I have nothing better to do so please allow me to share it.

With the PSA5 Wagner up for sale there has been talk how this is a better card than the Gretzky PSA8 Wagner. I don’t get it. And here is why.

The production process of the T206 card ended after the sheet is cut into individual cards. The PSA8 Wagner left the factory without being cut. Therefore it technically was an unfinished product. Somewhere down the road the card became a finished product when it was finally cut into an individual card at the correct dimensions as would have been if factory cut. Does it really matter that the card was not completed inside the factory?

Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it.

This card differs from other trimmed cards being that it was only cut once, as intended in the card’s production process (albeit at a later date). Trimmed cards are cut twice. The 2nd cut would be beyond the original production process for that card. Therefore the card has been altered from its final production form. The PSA8 was never completed, so how can it be altered?

The PSA8 Wagner to most in the vintage card hobby is the poster child for altered cards. But as I stated above, is it really an altered card? To me the poster child should be all of the near perfect Goudey Ruth’s and Goudey Lajoie’s. Funny how those cards have slightly smaller dimensions than other Goudey cards in a lesser condition. Further, do you really think Mastro and other card doctors only cut one card? That would be foolish to think so. And we know uncut Goudey sheets exist. Or at least existed. But no one ever speaks ill of high grade Goudey cards with slightly smaller dimensions. At least not publicly. Is it just understood that if you buy a high grade Ruth or Lajoie that doesn't quite fill out the holder it is probably trimmed?

The problem I see with the PSA8 card is that it was an insult to collector’s intelligence. For years Mastro lied, telling people it wasn't cut when everyone with knowledge of the hobby and common sense knew better. The card is sort of the Barry Bonds of the card hobby. Bonds’ is the home run king (the PSA8 Wagner is the best card in the market). Many hate Bonds not because he gained an advantage (PSA8 had the advantage of protected borders from not being cut at the factory), it is that he insulted our intelligence through the constant denials of what we all knew was true.

And there you have it. I have no real intentions for this post. Just felt like writing it.

Thank you for taking the time to read it.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Regardless of a cards dimensions, a factory cut has different characteristics than a "doctors" cut. Dave

[Exhibitman]

Boy, there are some issues with this reasoning:

"Does it really matter that the card was not completed inside the factory?"

Yes. The card was never a card, really, if it was cut from a sheet or scrap later on.

"Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it."

That is 100% incorrect. An original factory condition collectible always is worth more than a restored or after-market completed version that appears to be in the same condition.

"The PSA8 Wagner to most in the vintage card hobby is the poster child for altered cards. But as I stated above, is it really an altered card? To me the poster child should be all of the near perfect Goudey Ruth’s and Goudey Lajoie’s. Funny how those cards have slightly smaller dimensions than other Goudey cards in a lesser condition. Further, do you really think Mastro and other card doctors only cut one card? That would be foolish to think so. And we know uncut Goudey sheets exist. Or at least existed. But no one ever speaks ill of high grade Goudey cards with slightly smaller dimensions. At least not publicly. Is it just understood that if you buy a high grade Ruth or Lajoie that doesn't quite fill out the holder it is probably trimmed?"

This is a logical fallacy called "tu quoque": it assumes that because someone does something there is nothing wrong with doing it. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

[packs]

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by sylbry

This card differs from other trimmed cards being that it was only cut once, as intended in the card’s production process (albeit at a later date). Trimmed cards are cut twice. The 2nd cut would be beyond the original production process for that card. Therefore the card has been altered from its final production form. The PSA8 was never completed, so how can it be altered?

From what I understand it was cut from a sheet. Then bought and recut again to make it look nicer. So by your thinking the first cut would be the "finishing" job. The second cut was a deceiving cut to make it look better. The card is tainted by the fact that it was altered for deceitful purposes. The card is still the best visual aesthetic card, but it is considered altered thus making the two 5s the best non altered Wagner cards in the hobby.

The Wagner 8 should be graded A just like the brother card of Plank off the same sheet.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

+1

[packs]

Wait so when it was doctored a second time, it had alrady been cut from the sheet? Or was it cut from the sheet and then cut again by the same person?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by sylbry

..............This card differs from other trimmed cards being that it was only cut once, as intended in the card’s production process (albeit at a later date). Trimmed cards are cut twice. The 2nd cut would be beyond the original production process for that card. Therefore the card has been altered from its final production form. The PSA8 was never completed, so how can it be altered?.......

The PSA8 WAS cut twice. From what is being reported Mastro is going to admit to having trimmed the card AFTER it had already been cut from the sheet.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

From what I understand it was cut from a sheet. Then bought and recut again to make it look nicer. So by your thinking the first cut would be the "finishing" job. The second cut was a deceiving cut to make it look better. The card is tainted by the fact that it was altered for deceitful purposes. The card is still the best visual aesthetic card, but it is considered altered thus making the two 5s the best non altered Wagner cards in the hobby.

The Wagner 8 should be graded A just like the brother card of Plank off the same sheet.

I don't think the psa8 is the best wags. I don't like trimmed cards at all! I won't even keep a trimmed common around long. I would take a 5 (untrimmed) anyday. Also a couple of the "raw" wags that are about, (here and there). are much nicer. Dave

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I don't think the psa8 is the best wags. I don't like trimmed cards at all! I won't even keep a trimmed common around long. I would take a 5 (untrimmed) anyday. Also a couple of the "raw" wags that are about, (here and there). are much nicer. Dave

X 2

The best Wagner are the two PSA 5 example.
I hate card from uncut sheet ....These cards is not cards.... these cards are ' piece of a poster of a cards set'
I prefer a Beater over a trimmed card or a uncutt sheet card.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

X 2

The best Wagner are the two PSA 5 example.
I hate card from uncut sheet ....These cards is not cards.... these cards are ' piece of a poster of a cards set'
I prefer a Beater over a trimmed card or a uncutt sheet card.

My sentiments exactly Nelson.....haven't seen you post in a short while. Where have you been hiding? Dave.

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

I'm with you on this one.

The uncut sheet would be much more valuable.

[boneheadandrube]

Adam:

"Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it."

"That is 100% incorrect. An original factory condition collectible always is worth more than a restored or after-market completed version that appears to be in the same condition. "
--------------
I understand what you are saying, but this is not 100% correct for vintage cars. Most high dollar vintage Ferrari's and other foreign exotics undergo full body-off restorations to acheive the higher prices. You wouldn't want an original 1950's paint job on any type of car either...plus you have to get them running, and you wouldn't drive it with original brakes... does that qualify as altering?

Again I get your point, but 100% incorrect is a little strong...
GB

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

My sentiments exactly Nelson.....haven't seen you post in a short while. Where have you been hiding? Dave.

Hi David. Yep i don t post a lot in the past weeks. I take a little brake of my
T206 set building, i don t want be bored about that. I bought a couple hockey HOF rookie cards in the last weeks for my collection.
But i still continue to come on the board and read each day .

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

Adam:

"Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it."

"That is 100% incorrect. An original factory condition collectible always is worth more than a restored or after-market completed version that appears to be in the same condition. "
--------------
I understand what you are saying, but this is not 100% correct for vintage cars. Most high dollar vintage Ferrari's and other foreign exotics undergo full body-off restorations to acheive the higher prices. You wouldn't want an original 1950's paint job on any type of car either...plus you have to get them running, and you wouldn't drive it with original brakes... does that qualify as altering?

Again I get your point, but 100% incorrect is a little strong...
GB

i collected american muscle car since 10 years now... and the most valuable car is the unrestored survivor car !
what is more valuable :
a 1971 plymouth hemi 'cuda convertible fully restored - RE-body
OR
a survivor 'cuda with original paint untouched with scratch and ding on the paint ?

i choose all day long the survivor car.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Not to derail this very interesting thread, but Nelson, HOW could you ever be bored with that Plank in your pocket? Dave.

[g_vezina_c55]

LOL i am not bored... i don t want to be bored in the futur ehehe, so i collect slowly and i take brake.
I am a verry enthusiast guy and when i do a Hobby , like you probably know, i' ll do it at 100 MPH So i try to be a moderate guy

I always enjoy look at the Plank with the Magie and the Demmitt.

I will perhaps make new T206 purchase at the shriners show next week.

[Jacklitsch]

I'd like to think my Wags came out of a pack of smokes not off the scrap pile.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by Jacklitsch

I'd like to think my Wags came out of a pack of smokes not off the scrap pile.

X 2 for my plank... and i really enjoy when i think about who is the kid who own my plank before Mr Carter and put it in his bike wheel spoke LOL

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Boy, there are some issues with this reasoning:

"Does it really matter that the card was not completed inside the factory?"

Yes. The card was never a card, really, if it was cut from a sheet or scrap later on.

"Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it."

That is 100% incorrect. An original factory condition collectible always is worth more than a restored or after-market completed version that appears to be in the same condition.

"The PSA8 Wagner to most in the vintage card hobby is the poster child for altered cards. But as I stated above, is it really an altered card? To me the poster child should be all of the near perfect Goudey Ruth’s and Goudey Lajoie’s. Funny how those cards have slightly smaller dimensions than other Goudey cards in a lesser condition. Further, do you really think Mastro and other card doctors only cut one card? That would be foolish to think so. And we know uncut Goudey sheets exist. Or at least existed. But no one ever speaks ill of high grade Goudey cards with slightly smaller dimensions. At least not publicly. Is it just understood that if you buy a high grade Ruth or Lajoie that doesn't quite fill out the holder it is probably trimmed?"

This is a logical fallacy called "tu quoque": it assumes that because someone does something there is nothing wrong with doing it. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

The T206 factory (the printer who made the cards) was tasked with making cards, not strips of cards. The Wagner was made with the full intention of being a card. It was not created to be a strip. So I believe the argument that the production process was not complete is valid.

As far as whether it was cut then re-cut, I haven't a clue. I will take others word that it was. However, one can argue until it is cut to the factory intended dimensions it is not complete. Once it is cut beyond factory dimensions then it becomes altered. Not saying I subscribe to this theory but it certainly has merit.

Yes, if a factory original is in the same condition as a restored version, the factory version has more value. But in this case we are comparing a card that is in better shape than any factory original survivors. So it isn't quite apples to apples.

To the hemi cuda example. Yes, a survivor car in nearly the same condition as a fully restored car is worth more. However, a fully restored car version is worth more than one used as a daily driver.

Finally, not arguing two wrongs make a right. I am arguing this hobby puts emphasis on the apparent wrong done to the Wagner but completely ignore the obvious wrongs done to other cards. I am arguing it is hypocritical.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by Jacklitsch

I'd like to think my Wags came out of a pack of smokes not off the scrap pile.

Does it matter? The Wagner is the Wagner.

So if a factory employee took one home instead of inserting it in the pack it isn't a real Wagner?

Back to a car example, a gifted Ferrari it isn't as good as a Ferrari bought from a dealership because it didn't arrive via it's intended method of distribution?

[packs]

I think what they're saying is that a card is really a card when its inserted into a pack and pulled.

I'd have to agree. What's better in your mind? Pulling a 52 Mantle from a pack or being given one? I'd rather pull it from a pack if I could choose.

[Tomman1961]

I like your post as it is a a cut card from a poster. I can cut my 1967 Seaver Rookie from my uncut sheet and tell you it was graded a "10". Or my Terry Bradshaw rookie in the same manner.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Does it matter? The Wagner is the Wagner.

So if a factory employee took one home instead of inserting it in the pack it isn't a real Wagner?

Back to a car example, a gifted Ferrari it isn't as good as a Ferrari bought from a dealership because it didn't arrive via it's intended method of distribution?

You don't happen to own any MLB teams in the Southwest do you?

[buymycards]

Nelson, I love those Cuda's. I always thought they were much cooler than the Mustangs and Chevelle's. I would love to own one, but old, bald guys don't look cool, even in a Cuda.

Rick

[atx840]

Originally Posted by packs

Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

I'm not sure a sheet would hit 3mil even with Wagner on it, it's likely not going to get a numerical grade or be useable on any registry.

Would a blank back Wagner/Doyle pull a premium over a factory finished example?

At the time that sheet was cut I would think the Wagner on its own would have been much more desirable then a sheet.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

Anybody remember how much the uncut strip with the Wagner on it sold for a year or two ago? Granted, that one was pretty beat up but that would give us an idea. Personally, I don't think the uncut would sell for much, if any, of a premium over a really nice single card example.

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Also a couple of the "raw" wags that are about, (here and there). are much nicer. Dave

I would love to see some of these "much nicer" raw Wagners if you happen to have scans.

[Cardboard Junkie]

One or two have been shown here on net 54....you will have to search though...right now I'm going surfin! Dave

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'm not sure a sheet would hit 3mil even with Wagner on it, it's likely not going to get a numerical grade or be useable on any registry.

Would a blank back Wagner/Doyle pull a premium over a factory finished example?

At the time that sheet was cut I would think the Wagner on its own would have been much more desirable then a sheet.

Like collecting in general, there's no right or wrong answer; it's whatever turns you on. I for one would be willing to pay a lot more for a full-production-run uncut sheet that contained a Wagner than I would for the card itself (assuming all things are more or less equal in regard to the condition of the Wagners). I think such sheets that have imbedded within them important players that would, if cut, generate mint condition cards are very undervalued. The supply of such sheets is very limited and should someday the demand for them increase, the prices IMO will increase substantially.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

That's what I've always felt. Especially in the condition the Wagner and Plank appear to be in (from the same sheet/strip/whatever it was). It's a shame.

Sincerely, Clayton

[E93]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Like collecting in general, there's no right or wrong answer; it's whatever turns you on. I for one would be willing to pay a lot more for a full-production-run uncut sheet that contained a Wagner than I would for the card itself (assuming all things are more or less equal in regard to the condition of the Wagners). I think such sheets that have imbedded within them important players that would, if cut, generate mint condition cards are very undervalued. The supply of such sheets is very limited and should someday the demand for them increase, the prices IMO will increase substantially.

+1
JimB
P.S. It would have also been the only known T206 sheet in the hobby! And it had Wagner AND Plank on it!

[egbeachley]

To the original poster.....I believe the PSA8 is now smaller than normal factory dimensions. Some on this Board have "slid" a good card behind it and noticed it's discernably smaller.

[packs]

What's the argument for the single card being more valuable? T206 freaks and scraps are huge right now. I couldn't even guess what an uncut sheet with Wagner and Plank on it would sell for.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

You don't happen to own any MLB teams in the Southwest do you?

That was funny

I think that the sheet/strip this Wagner and Plank came from would have (in todays market) exceeded the top price of that PSA 8 Wagner. Maybe not back in '84,,,but I think in these days it would sell for huge $$.

I think that beat up strip with Wagner on it is very undervalued-meaning what it sold for last time-someone got a steal !!! Even being beat up. Just my opinion.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by atx840

Would a blank back Wagner/Doyle pull a premium over a factory finished example?

That's a really good question. I would say "No" for a blank-back Wagner. Kind of weird, given that a blank-back of any other card would command way more, but I'll stick with my guess.

A poll might be interesting.

[travrosty]

the psa 8 wagner was cut twice, if you wanted to be fair, the oversized jumbo wagner could be cut again and squared up nicely to compete with it. but the second trimming on the psa 8 wagner was to deceive and its a trimmed card, A for authentic, not a number grade, but psa will go down kicking and screaming denying it was trimmed.

[terjung]

Original gets one price.

Restored / Altered gets another price.

The market determines the value for each - whether cars or cards.

[Exhibitman]

First of all, cards ain't cars. Card collectors don't like restored, retouched, tampered-with cards. The comparison between two different classes of collectibles is apples to oranges in this context.

Second, my comment wasn't directed to nor was your example a roached old car versus a restored version of one, it was a partial car versus a whole car, condition issues aside. As I said, condition issues aside the original will always bring more than the rebuild. Or, to put it into context, if a Wagner surfaced in a cache of cards like the Black Swamp Find and it scored an 8 which would you prefer to own, the unaltered, factory original 8 or the Mastro chop-shop 8?

Third, under every grading standard for cards the "8" Wagner--which is now confirmed to have been trimmed 70 years after it was issued--is an "A" card not an "8" card. It is no different than any other trimmed card that made it into a PSA holder: a fraud.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

First of all, cards ain't cars. Card collectors don't like restored, retouched, tampered-with cards. The comparison between two different classes of collectibles is apples to oranges in this context.

Second, my comment wasn't directed to nor was your example a roached old car versus a restored version of one, it was a partial car versus a whole car, condition issues aside. As I said, condition issues aside the original will always bring more than the rebuild. Or, to put it into context, if a Wagner surfaced in a cache of cards like the Black Swamp Find and it scored an 8 which would you prefer to own, the unaltered, factory original 8 or the Mastro chop-shop 8?

Third, under every grading standard for cards the "8" Wagner--which is now confirmed to have been trimmed 70 years after it was issued--is an "A" card not an "8" card. It is no different than any other trimmed card that made it into a PSA holder: a fraud.

Altered or not the PSA 8 Wagner is the best "looking" Wagner in existence. I don't think it's value took too much of a hit with the Mastro admission but I am certainly not sure of it. Obviously, the only way to know is if it ever sells again. Of course any collector in their right mind would rather have an 8 with no issues surrounding it.

[howard38]

/

[Leon]

Originally Posted by howard38

This may be a dumb question but here goes:

Obviously the owner of the PSA 8 has no incentive to submit it for re-grading. But can PSA on their own declare it to be trimmed and enter it as such in their database? If not is the card legally and/or technically considered to be an 8?

I think they could but they might be liable for a lot of money if they did that. When I spoke with Joe O at the last National, and this topic came up, he told me it's the owners first choice as it's his card. If the owner doesn't want to do anything then PSA wouldn't. I realize things can change but that is what he told me. No specifics were talked about and no hypotheticals were talked about. Could PSA do it though? I guess they can do whatever they want....then reap the repercussions.

[Shoele$$]

As others have said, at this point, the history/controversy is what a lot of deep pocket non-purist collectors will be interested in. That's what's gonna sell the card if it ever does go back up for auction. You still can't argue that the image quality is still by far the best of any other Wags. That and the "story" behind it will be the selling points, not the technical grade itself.

[howard38]

/

[Jlighter]

If he did submit it back and it came out trimmed how would value be established for how much PSA owes the owner?

Would it have to be at public auction?

He bought it privately, what's stopping him from being a schmuck and selling it in the trimmed holder to a friend for a dollar and having PSA be liable for 2,799,999?

I guess they could just give him 500,000 free submissions.

[brookdodger55]

If the card was re-submitted and it was given a grade of "A" wouldn't the cards owners "MLB Arizona Diamondback Owner" be able to declare the lost value
Of his investment the same way an investor would on stock loses for the year.If the card was auctioned off and sold for less then he paid due to the downgrading of the card. I'm sure his accountants could easily figure it out. Or If the card is determined to have been altered by another grading company Isn't the initial grading company liable for the difference in value. Another ? If it is determined that Psa knew the card was trimmed and still gave It an 8, didn't the Psa 8 cause all of the other Wagners to have inflated prices that the buyers paid. Can Mastro and Psa be held personally liable for the inflated prices if it can be proven. I fully understand that this would be nearly impossible to figure out the true values of all the Wangers if the Psa8 was originally given a "A" grade. Any opinions.

[HRBAKER]

"When I spoke with Joe O at the last National, and this topic came up, he told me it's the owners first choice as it's his card. If the owner doesn't want to do anything then PSA wouldn't."

Of that much I think we can be pretty sure of.

[Fred]

NOw, wouldn't it be interesting if PSA owned up to a grading guarantee?

The owner of the PSA8 Wagner could send it in and have it encapsulated in a PSA-AUTH holder and have about 100,000 free submissions for grading!!! Wow, what a frigging deal!!!

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

i collected american muscle car since 10 years now... and the most valuable car is the unrestored survivor car !
what is more valuable :
a 1971 plymouth hemi 'cuda convertible fully restored - RE-body
OR
a survivor 'cuda with original paint untouched with scratch and ding on the paint ?

i choose all day long the survivor car.

With respect, when they simply don't exist in original "untouched condition" (its a friggen car) they get restored to achieve big money...not "roached out", not "beater condition"...but normal use as they were designed to be used, they still need to be restored to some extent to fetch the higher value:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/06...sive-ferraris/

GB

[sportscollector]

I think the hobby should dump that wagner as the face of the hobby and replace it with either the highest grade Baltimore news babe ruth or one of the PSA 10 1952 topps mickey mantle's I bet if one of the 3 PSA 10 mantles were ever to hit the auction block it would go for close to 3 million

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by sportscollector

I bet if one of the 3 PSA 10 mantles were ever to hit the auction block it would go for close to 3 million

Funny joke.