The PSA8 Wagner... I don't get it.

[Exhibitman]

Boy, there are some issues with this reasoning:

"Does it really matter that the card was not completed inside the factory?"

Yes. The card was never a card, really, if it was cut from a sheet or scrap later on.

"Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it."

That is 100% incorrect. An original factory condition collectible always is worth more than a restored or after-market completed version that appears to be in the same condition.

"The PSA8 Wagner to most in the vintage card hobby is the poster child for altered cards. But as I stated above, is it really an altered card? To me the poster child should be all of the near perfect Goudey Ruth’s and Goudey Lajoie’s. Funny how those cards have slightly smaller dimensions than other Goudey cards in a lesser condition. Further, do you really think Mastro and other card doctors only cut one card? That would be foolish to think so. And we know uncut Goudey sheets exist. Or at least existed. But no one ever speaks ill of high grade Goudey cards with slightly smaller dimensions. At least not publicly. Is it just understood that if you buy a high grade Ruth or Lajoie that doesn't quite fill out the holder it is probably trimmed?"

This is a logical fallacy called "tu quoque": it assumes that because someone does something there is nothing wrong with doing it. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

[packs]

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

+1

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

I'm with you on this one.

The uncut sheet would be much more valuable.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

Anybody remember how much the uncut strip with the Wagner on it sold for a year or two ago? Granted, that one was pretty beat up but that would give us an idea. Personally, I don't think the uncut would sell for much, if any, of a premium over a really nice single card example.

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Also a couple of the "raw" wags that are about, (here and there). are much nicer. Dave

I would love to see some of these "much nicer" raw Wagners if you happen to have scans.

[Cardboard Junkie]

One or two have been shown here on net 54....you will have to search though...right now I'm going surfin! Dave

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

That's what I've always felt. Especially in the condition the Wagner and Plank appear to be in (from the same sheet/strip/whatever it was). It's a shame.

Sincerely, Clayton

[egbeachley]

To the original poster.....I believe the PSA8 is now smaller than normal factory dimensions. Some on this Board have "slid" a good card behind it and noticed it's discernably smaller.

[packs]

What's the argument for the single card being more valuable? T206 freaks and scraps are huge right now. I couldn't even guess what an uncut sheet with Wagner and Plank on it would sell for.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Boy, there are some issues with this reasoning:

"Does it really matter that the card was not completed inside the factory?"

Yes. The card was never a card, really, if it was cut from a sheet or scrap later on.

"Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it."

That is 100% incorrect. An original factory condition collectible always is worth more than a restored or after-market completed version that appears to be in the same condition.

"The PSA8 Wagner to most in the vintage card hobby is the poster child for altered cards. But as I stated above, is it really an altered card? To me the poster child should be all of the near perfect Goudey Ruth’s and Goudey Lajoie’s. Funny how those cards have slightly smaller dimensions than other Goudey cards in a lesser condition. Further, do you really think Mastro and other card doctors only cut one card? That would be foolish to think so. And we know uncut Goudey sheets exist. Or at least existed. But no one ever speaks ill of high grade Goudey cards with slightly smaller dimensions. At least not publicly. Is it just understood that if you buy a high grade Ruth or Lajoie that doesn't quite fill out the holder it is probably trimmed?"

This is a logical fallacy called "tu quoque": it assumes that because someone does something there is nothing wrong with doing it. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

The T206 factory (the printer who made the cards) was tasked with making cards, not strips of cards. The Wagner was made with the full intention of being a card. It was not created to be a strip. So I believe the argument that the production process was not complete is valid.

As far as whether it was cut then re-cut, I haven't a clue. I will take others word that it was. However, one can argue until it is cut to the factory intended dimensions it is not complete. Once it is cut beyond factory dimensions then it becomes altered. Not saying I subscribe to this theory but it certainly has merit.

Yes, if a factory original is in the same condition as a restored version, the factory version has more value. But in this case we are comparing a card that is in better shape than any factory original survivors. So it isn't quite apples to apples.

To the hemi cuda example. Yes, a survivor car in nearly the same condition as a fully restored car is worth more. However, a fully restored car version is worth more than one used as a daily driver.

Finally, not arguing two wrongs make a right. I am arguing this hobby puts emphasis on the apparent wrong done to the Wagner but completely ignore the obvious wrongs done to other cards. I am arguing it is hypocritical.