The PSA8 Wagner... I don't get it.

[sylbry]

Good Friday to you all. This thought has been on my mind and at the moment I have nothing better to do so please allow me to share it.

With the PSA5 Wagner up for sale there has been talk how this is a better card than the Gretzky PSA8 Wagner. I don’t get it. And here is why.

The production process of the T206 card ended after the sheet is cut into individual cards. The PSA8 Wagner left the factory without being cut. Therefore it technically was an unfinished product. Somewhere down the road the card became a finished product when it was finally cut into an individual card at the correct dimensions as would have been if factory cut. Does it really matter that the card was not completed inside the factory?

Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it.

This card differs from other trimmed cards being that it was only cut once, as intended in the card’s production process (albeit at a later date). Trimmed cards are cut twice. The 2nd cut would be beyond the original production process for that card. Therefore the card has been altered from its final production form. The PSA8 was never completed, so how can it be altered?

The PSA8 Wagner to most in the vintage card hobby is the poster child for altered cards. But as I stated above, is it really an altered card? To me the poster child should be all of the near perfect Goudey Ruth’s and Goudey Lajoie’s. Funny how those cards have slightly smaller dimensions than other Goudey cards in a lesser condition. Further, do you really think Mastro and other card doctors only cut one card? That would be foolish to think so. And we know uncut Goudey sheets exist. Or at least existed. But no one ever speaks ill of high grade Goudey cards with slightly smaller dimensions. At least not publicly. Is it just understood that if you buy a high grade Ruth or Lajoie that doesn't quite fill out the holder it is probably trimmed?

The problem I see with the PSA8 card is that it was an insult to collector’s intelligence. For years Mastro lied, telling people it wasn't cut when everyone with knowledge of the hobby and common sense knew better. The card is sort of the Barry Bonds of the card hobby. Bonds’ is the home run king (the PSA8 Wagner is the best card in the market). Many hate Bonds not because he gained an advantage (PSA8 had the advantage of protected borders from not being cut at the factory), it is that he insulted our intelligence through the constant denials of what we all knew was true.

And there you have it. I have no real intentions for this post. Just felt like writing it.

Thank you for taking the time to read it.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Regardless of a cards dimensions, a factory cut has different characteristics than a "doctors" cut. Dave

[Exhibitman]

Boy, there are some issues with this reasoning:

"Does it really matter that the card was not completed inside the factory?"

Yes. The card was never a card, really, if it was cut from a sheet or scrap later on.

"Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it."

That is 100% incorrect. An original factory condition collectible always is worth more than a restored or after-market completed version that appears to be in the same condition.

"The PSA8 Wagner to most in the vintage card hobby is the poster child for altered cards. But as I stated above, is it really an altered card? To me the poster child should be all of the near perfect Goudey Ruth’s and Goudey Lajoie’s. Funny how those cards have slightly smaller dimensions than other Goudey cards in a lesser condition. Further, do you really think Mastro and other card doctors only cut one card? That would be foolish to think so. And we know uncut Goudey sheets exist. Or at least existed. But no one ever speaks ill of high grade Goudey cards with slightly smaller dimensions. At least not publicly. Is it just understood that if you buy a high grade Ruth or Lajoie that doesn't quite fill out the holder it is probably trimmed?"

This is a logical fallacy called "tu quoque": it assumes that because someone does something there is nothing wrong with doing it. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

[packs]

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

+1

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

I'm with you on this one.

The uncut sheet would be much more valuable.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

Anybody remember how much the uncut strip with the Wagner on it sold for a year or two ago? Granted, that one was pretty beat up but that would give us an idea. Personally, I don't think the uncut would sell for much, if any, of a premium over a really nice single card example.

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Also a couple of the "raw" wags that are about, (here and there). are much nicer. Dave

I would love to see some of these "much nicer" raw Wagners if you happen to have scans.

[Cardboard Junkie]

One or two have been shown here on net 54....you will have to search though...right now I'm going surfin! Dave

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by packs

What really confuses me is the motive to cut the Wagner from the scrap sheet or full sheet it was included on originally. Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

That's what I've always felt. Especially in the condition the Wagner and Plank appear to be in (from the same sheet/strip/whatever it was). It's a shame.

Sincerely, Clayton

[egbeachley]

To the original poster.....I believe the PSA8 is now smaller than normal factory dimensions. Some on this Board have "slid" a good card behind it and noticed it's discernably smaller.

[packs]

What's the argument for the single card being more valuable? T206 freaks and scraps are huge right now. I couldn't even guess what an uncut sheet with Wagner and Plank on it would sell for.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Boy, there are some issues with this reasoning:

"Does it really matter that the card was not completed inside the factory?"

Yes. The card was never a card, really, if it was cut from a sheet or scrap later on.

"Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it."

That is 100% incorrect. An original factory condition collectible always is worth more than a restored or after-market completed version that appears to be in the same condition.

"The PSA8 Wagner to most in the vintage card hobby is the poster child for altered cards. But as I stated above, is it really an altered card? To me the poster child should be all of the near perfect Goudey Ruth’s and Goudey Lajoie’s. Funny how those cards have slightly smaller dimensions than other Goudey cards in a lesser condition. Further, do you really think Mastro and other card doctors only cut one card? That would be foolish to think so. And we know uncut Goudey sheets exist. Or at least existed. But no one ever speaks ill of high grade Goudey cards with slightly smaller dimensions. At least not publicly. Is it just understood that if you buy a high grade Ruth or Lajoie that doesn't quite fill out the holder it is probably trimmed?"

This is a logical fallacy called "tu quoque": it assumes that because someone does something there is nothing wrong with doing it. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

The T206 factory (the printer who made the cards) was tasked with making cards, not strips of cards. The Wagner was made with the full intention of being a card. It was not created to be a strip. So I believe the argument that the production process was not complete is valid.

As far as whether it was cut then re-cut, I haven't a clue. I will take others word that it was. However, one can argue until it is cut to the factory intended dimensions it is not complete. Once it is cut beyond factory dimensions then it becomes altered. Not saying I subscribe to this theory but it certainly has merit.

Yes, if a factory original is in the same condition as a restored version, the factory version has more value. But in this case we are comparing a card that is in better shape than any factory original survivors. So it isn't quite apples to apples.

To the hemi cuda example. Yes, a survivor car in nearly the same condition as a fully restored car is worth more. However, a fully restored car version is worth more than one used as a daily driver.

Finally, not arguing two wrongs make a right. I am arguing this hobby puts emphasis on the apparent wrong done to the Wagner but completely ignore the obvious wrongs done to other cards. I am arguing it is hypocritical.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by sylbry

This card differs from other trimmed cards being that it was only cut once, as intended in the card’s production process (albeit at a later date). Trimmed cards are cut twice. The 2nd cut would be beyond the original production process for that card. Therefore the card has been altered from its final production form. The PSA8 was never completed, so how can it be altered?

From what I understand it was cut from a sheet. Then bought and recut again to make it look nicer. So by your thinking the first cut would be the "finishing" job. The second cut was a deceiving cut to make it look better. The card is tainted by the fact that it was altered for deceitful purposes. The card is still the best visual aesthetic card, but it is considered altered thus making the two 5s the best non altered Wagner cards in the hobby.

The Wagner 8 should be graded A just like the brother card of Plank off the same sheet.

[packs]

Wait so when it was doctored a second time, it had alrady been cut from the sheet? Or was it cut from the sheet and then cut again by the same person?

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

From what I understand it was cut from a sheet. Then bought and recut again to make it look nicer. So by your thinking the first cut would be the "finishing" job. The second cut was a deceiving cut to make it look better. The card is tainted by the fact that it was altered for deceitful purposes. The card is still the best visual aesthetic card, but it is considered altered thus making the two 5s the best non altered Wagner cards in the hobby.

The Wagner 8 should be graded A just like the brother card of Plank off the same sheet.

I don't think the psa8 is the best wags. I don't like trimmed cards at all! I won't even keep a trimmed common around long. I would take a 5 (untrimmed) anyday. Also a couple of the "raw" wags that are about, (here and there). are much nicer. Dave

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I don't think the psa8 is the best wags. I don't like trimmed cards at all! I won't even keep a trimmed common around long. I would take a 5 (untrimmed) anyday. Also a couple of the "raw" wags that are about, (here and there). are much nicer. Dave

X 2

The best Wagner are the two PSA 5 example.
I hate card from uncut sheet ....These cards is not cards.... these cards are ' piece of a poster of a cards set'
I prefer a Beater over a trimmed card or a uncutt sheet card.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

X 2

The best Wagner are the two PSA 5 example.
I hate card from uncut sheet ....These cards is not cards.... these cards are ' piece of a poster of a cards set'
I prefer a Beater over a trimmed card or a uncutt sheet card.

My sentiments exactly Nelson.....haven't seen you post in a short while. Where have you been hiding? Dave.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

My sentiments exactly Nelson.....haven't seen you post in a short while. Where have you been hiding? Dave.

Hi David. Yep i don t post a lot in the past weeks. I take a little brake of my
T206 set building, i don t want be bored about that. I bought a couple hockey HOF rookie cards in the last weeks for my collection.
But i still continue to come on the board and read each day .

[boneheadandrube]

Adam:

"Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it."

"That is 100% incorrect. An original factory condition collectible always is worth more than a restored or after-market completed version that appears to be in the same condition. "
--------------
I understand what you are saying, but this is not 100% correct for vintage cars. Most high dollar vintage Ferrari's and other foreign exotics undergo full body-off restorations to acheive the higher prices. You wouldn't want an original 1950's paint job on any type of car either...plus you have to get them running, and you wouldn't drive it with original brakes... does that qualify as altering?

Again I get your point, but 100% incorrect is a little strong...
GB

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

Adam:

"Compare this to other collectibles. Say a Shelby Cobra left the factory without an interior. No one in their right mind would say the car is better off not having an interior than if someone installed an interior at a later date. Or say Antonio Stradivari sold a violin without string. No one would be scolded for putting strings on something that originally didn’t. Point is other collectibles have more value in their intended final form, regardless of who does it."

"That is 100% incorrect. An original factory condition collectible always is worth more than a restored or after-market completed version that appears to be in the same condition. "
--------------
I understand what you are saying, but this is not 100% correct for vintage cars. Most high dollar vintage Ferrari's and other foreign exotics undergo full body-off restorations to acheive the higher prices. You wouldn't want an original 1950's paint job on any type of car either...plus you have to get them running, and you wouldn't drive it with original brakes... does that qualify as altering?

Again I get your point, but 100% incorrect is a little strong...
GB

i collected american muscle car since 10 years now... and the most valuable car is the unrestored survivor car !
what is more valuable :
a 1971 plymouth hemi 'cuda convertible fully restored - RE-body
OR
a survivor 'cuda with original paint untouched with scratch and ding on the paint ?

i choose all day long the survivor car.

[Tomman1961]

I like your post as it is a a cut card from a poster. I can cut my 1967 Seaver Rookie from my uncut sheet and tell you it was graded a "10". Or my Terry Bradshaw rookie in the same manner.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by sylbry

..............This card differs from other trimmed cards being that it was only cut once, as intended in the card’s production process (albeit at a later date). Trimmed cards are cut twice. The 2nd cut would be beyond the original production process for that card. Therefore the card has been altered from its final production form. The PSA8 was never completed, so how can it be altered?.......

The PSA8 WAS cut twice. From what is being reported Mastro is going to admit to having trimmed the card AFTER it had already been cut from the sheet.

[atx840]

Originally Posted by packs

Wouldn't the sheet in its original state with an uncut Wagner be far more valuable than just the Wagner?

I'm not sure a sheet would hit 3mil even with Wagner on it, it's likely not going to get a numerical grade or be useable on any registry.

Would a blank back Wagner/Doyle pull a premium over a factory finished example?

At the time that sheet was cut I would think the Wagner on its own would have been much more desirable then a sheet.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'm not sure a sheet would hit 3mil even with Wagner on it, it's likely not going to get a numerical grade or be useable on any registry.

Would a blank back Wagner/Doyle pull a premium over a factory finished example?

At the time that sheet was cut I would think the Wagner on its own would have been much more desirable then a sheet.

Like collecting in general, there's no right or wrong answer; it's whatever turns you on. I for one would be willing to pay a lot more for a full-production-run uncut sheet that contained a Wagner than I would for the card itself (assuming all things are more or less equal in regard to the condition of the Wagners). I think such sheets that have imbedded within them important players that would, if cut, generate mint condition cards are very undervalued. The supply of such sheets is very limited and should someday the demand for them increase, the prices IMO will increase substantially.

[E93]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Like collecting in general, there's no right or wrong answer; it's whatever turns you on. I for one would be willing to pay a lot more for a full-production-run uncut sheet that contained a Wagner than I would for the card itself (assuming all things are more or less equal in regard to the condition of the Wagners). I think such sheets that have imbedded within them important players that would, if cut, generate mint condition cards are very undervalued. The supply of such sheets is very limited and should someday the demand for them increase, the prices IMO will increase substantially.

+1
JimB
P.S. It would have also been the only known T206 sheet in the hobby! And it had Wagner AND Plank on it!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by atx840

Would a blank back Wagner/Doyle pull a premium over a factory finished example?

That's a really good question. I would say "No" for a blank-back Wagner. Kind of weird, given that a blank-back of any other card would command way more, but I'll stick with my guess.

A poll might be interesting.

[travrosty]

the psa 8 wagner was cut twice, if you wanted to be fair, the oversized jumbo wagner could be cut again and squared up nicely to compete with it. but the second trimming on the psa 8 wagner was to deceive and its a trimmed card, A for authentic, not a number grade, but psa will go down kicking and screaming denying it was trimmed.

[terjung]

Original gets one price.

Restored / Altered gets another price.

The market determines the value for each - whether cars or cards.

[Exhibitman]

First of all, cards ain't cars. Card collectors don't like restored, retouched, tampered-with cards. The comparison between two different classes of collectibles is apples to oranges in this context.

Second, my comment wasn't directed to nor was your example a roached old car versus a restored version of one, it was a partial car versus a whole car, condition issues aside. As I said, condition issues aside the original will always bring more than the rebuild. Or, to put it into context, if a Wagner surfaced in a cache of cards like the Black Swamp Find and it scored an 8 which would you prefer to own, the unaltered, factory original 8 or the Mastro chop-shop 8?

Third, under every grading standard for cards the "8" Wagner--which is now confirmed to have been trimmed 70 years after it was issued--is an "A" card not an "8" card. It is no different than any other trimmed card that made it into a PSA holder: a fraud.

[snookerhall]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Does it really matter that the card was not completed inside the factory?

It absolutely matters.

The automated cutting leads to off-center and miscut cards. The Wagner in question never had the opportunity to be either because it was cut in a different way, allegedly twice.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by snookerhall

It absolutely matters.

The automated cutting leads to off-center and miscut cards. The Wagner in question never had the opportunity to be either because it was cut in a different way, allegedly twice.

To add to that, all the "factory completed" cards had a 70-80 year head start on wear.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Does it really matter that the card was not completed inside the factory?

Is it even a card if it didn't leave the factory as such? "The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote 'a flute without holes is not a flute and a donut with no hole is a danish.' He was a funny guy." Ty Webb

[drc]

You can do whatever you want to to a card, as long as you disclose the alteration at sale.

If you think there's nothing wrong with cutting a card from a sheet 50 years later, that is fine. But you have to disclose the modern cut at sale.