Let's Talk E90-1

[rdixon1208]

I've only got a couple now, but I plan to start collecting E90-1's with more focus. I've read through some old posts and done some online research, but I still have some questions. First of all, why can't I find a Tris Speaker? This card's been at the top of my want list for a couple of years. One came up in a Goodwin auction a year or so ago, but another board member wanted it worse than me I guess. Had I know I wouldn't see another one for so long I would have made him pay more. Otherwise, I haven't seen another one for sale or auction. Does anyone have any information as to why this card is so tough? Also, what are the other tough cards in the set? I know they were printed over a 3 year period...does anyone have a breakdown of which cards were likely printed in a given year? I guess I could do my own research to try to figure that out, but I was hoping one of you old timers may have already done that and would be willing to share. Also, it seems to me like many of the HOFers come up for auction much more often than the commons. Has anyone else noticed this and is there a good reason for that? I'll probably think of more questions, but I'll stop for now. One last thing...scans always make a threrad much more enjoyable so please show em if you got em.

E90-1 Crawford.jpg

[Jaybird]

here's my lone example. I like this set. Couple of really neat cards like the Duffy and Sweeney.

[smokelessjoe]

Here are the ones I have....

[barrysloate]

Tris Speaker is one of the short prints and is among the toughest cards in the set.

[Leon]

E90-1 is the T206 of Caramel cards. While I like to have current threads as new information is gleaned fairly often, there is a long E90-1 thread in our archive section that is worth checking out, though it's about 6 yrs old. And this card came in 2nd place when I was contemplating what card to use on our Net54baseball T-shirts. It is one of my favorite caramel cards aesthetically speaking. What isn't to like about it? Good luck in the Endeavor....

[ethicsprof]

I,too, think that these are very beautiful cards.
Typically, I only get one card per type for my type collection but ended up
with 3 of these!!
I have 2 from the Nagy collection: schlitzer and roy thomas
and my third is sheckard.
best of luck in your new quest,
barry

[chaddurbin]

speaker isn't any scarcer than any of the other toughies, it's just collectors tend to hold onto the card longer once it's in their possession...speaker's not in many other contemporary caramel issues, it's his identified rookie "card", letting it go might mean it will be hard to get it back. so one would have a list of big cards to sell from the set before thinking about selling the speaker (it makes a cool rookie caramel type card). there was a point 6-7 years back where 4-5 of varying grades came onto the market in 3-4 mos (i was guilty of having 2) but the last few sales it's been the same sgc 10. don't worry after this thread you'll see 1-2 pop up the next 6 months.

[steve B]

They're nice cards. I pick them up once in a while, and should probably get more. Most of mine are a bit rough. Except for this one.
The grade is a generous one since there's a really light crease in the center of the card.

Another odd note is that the 2010 big book lists it as one of the tough ones, which is a typo.

Steve B

[ScottFandango]

ahh the mysteries of the E90-1

some of the well known "rarities" are not as rare as others lesser known cards..

not to mention that certain cards come with two types of backs, a regular back and a SHADED BORDERS back...

some debate over this but if only certain (known by me) cards are found with the shaded back, then its not random printing errors (otherwise the shaded backs would be found on all the 120 cards which its not)

the shaded reverse cards are all LOW POP cards that are uncommon to find on ebay for sale...no common cards (most that are for sale on ebay) have shaded backs!

plus if you look at the front of the dozen or so shaded reverse cards, they all look similar on the front (same artist perhaps) signifying these were a separate print run (the rarest print run apparently)

i know Bob Lemke didnt think it was valid enough to document this in his book, but i dont think all the debate is done in regards to the overlooked obverse sides..

cheers

[vintagetoppsguy]

I've been going back and forth over the last year or so trying to decide if I want to start this set or not. I have picked up a few HOFers along the way.





Not a HOFer, but I picked this up on eBay earlier this week:

[Ladder7]

Would be a fun challenge to assemble, someday perhaps. The Young (Bos) is the pick of the litter. That 50 is sweet.

[pkaufman]

Speaker

[tedzan]

Here are two previous Net54 threads on the E90-1 cards that you will find to be very informative.
Check them out.........................

Let's Talk E90-1....toughest Candy card set ?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...-1+set+respect

E90-1.....and the "Dirty Thirty" theory

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...-1+set+respect



Here are several of the toughest cards in the E90-1 set............................................... .................................................. ...






............................. Wagner .................................................. .............. Upp .....................




......... KEELER NY Nat'l .........



TED Z

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I've been going back and forth over the last year or so trying to decide if I want to start this set or not. I have picked up a few HOFers along the way.





Not a HOFer, but I picked this up on eBay earlier this week:

David obviously has an extremely good sense of eye appeal, aside and apart from technical grade!

Happy collecting,

Larry

[Mikehealer]

Nice Speaker Mr. Kaufman.

[ullmandds]

I like this set a lot...as Leon said...definitely the caramel equivalent of T206...it's got almost all of the stars...beautiful images...and some toughies. I've found the red background keeler portrait to be very tough.

[tbob]

Where were all you guys when I sold my E90-1 set in REA (all SGC graded) and got burned?

I have bought a couple of the ones I really liked in this set lately and the card shown below tonight. It's authentic but nice.
With regard to the Speaker, when I put my set together the two toughest cards were Speaker and Shean. Far and away. If you have the money you can buy any card in the set except for Speaker and Shean (and McLean) which are by far the toughest and rarely appear....

[T206Collector]

The only signed E90-1 card I've ever heard of is this Cobb from the Morey collection (no it's not mine -- I wish). Anybody ever seen another?

[tedzan]

Boston team collectors of this set certainly have a tough time finding their guys. A number of the scarce cards
that were printed in the last (1910) series represent the two Boston teams:

Boston AL......

Hall (horiz.)
Karger
Speaker
Stahl

Boston NL......

B. Brown (horiz.)
Graham
Richie
Shean
Bill Sweeney


A wild theory of mine suggests that Ramly (Worcester, MA) had the rights to these players in 1909; therefore,
the American Caramel Co. could not portray these Boston players in their early series.


TED Z

[tbob]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Boston team collectors of this set certainly have a tough time finding their guys. A number of the scarce cards
that were printed in the last (1910) series represent the two Boston teams:

Boston AL......

Hall (horiz.)
Karger
Speaker
Stahl

Boston NL......

B. Brown (horiz.)
Graham
Richie
Shean
Bill Sweeney


A wild theory of mine suggests that Ramly (Worcester, MA) had the rights to these players in 1909; therefore,
the American Caramel Co. could not portray these Boston players in their early series.


TED Z

Ted you may be on to something there.
The two horizontal cards seem to be tough because collectors really like horizontal cards but all the others are just plain tough, especially Dave Shean and Tris Speaker. Why the McLean seems to be on everyone's want list is another story. That was my 3rd toughest card behind the above two. Others say it is THE toughest. I know a couple of E90-1 collectors who have settled for putting the E92 Dockman McLean (same pose etc.) in their sets until they can find the E90-1 one.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Nice cards everyone!

Here are my two. Not quite one par with some of those already posted, but I love them just the same.


Thanks,

AndyH


.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tbob

Ted you may be on to something there.
The two horizontal cards seem to be tough because collectors really like horizontal cards but all the others are just plain tough, especially Dave Shean and Tris Speaker. Why the McLean seems to be on everyone's want list is another story. That was my 3rd toughest card behind the above two. Others say it is THE toughest. I know a couple of E90-1 collectors who have settled for putting the E92 Dockman McLean (same pose etc.) in their sets until they can find the E90-1 one.

Thanks for bringing up McLean....he was printed in the last series (1910) and his E90 card is indeed very tough. Expanding on my Ramly / American Caramel theory,
further comparison of the Ramly set roster indicates that they may have controlled the rights to several Cincinatti players......

Karger
Larry McLean
Mike Mitchell

And, as you well know these 3 guys are all very tough E90 cards; and, were printed in the last series (short-printed that is).


TED Z

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Boston team collectors of this set certainly have a tough time finding their guys. A number of the scarce cards
that were printed in the last (1910) series represent the two Boston teams:

Boston AL......

Hall (horiz.)
Karger
Speaker
Stahl

Boston NL......

B. Brown (horiz.)
Graham
Richie
Shean
Bill Sweeney


A wild theory of mine suggests that Ramly (Worcester, MA) had the rights to these players in 1909; therefore,
the American Caramel Co. could not portray these Boston players in their early series.


TED Z

Hi Ted,

While I know there is a big difference between having rights and exercising rights, I have to note that there is no Speaker and no Hall in T204. Nor was there a B. Brown card or a Shean card in T204. Not so sure about the theory...

Cheers,
Blair

[tedzan]

Blair

The following compares these two sets with respect to these three teams......

Ramly (1909) ...... American Caramel (AC)....1910 tough series cards

BOSTON AL
-----------
..................................Karger(traded)
..................................Speaker
Stahl...........................Stahl

BOSTON NL
-----------
Graham........................Graham
Ritchey........................Richie
..................................Shean
Sweeney......................Sweeney

CINCI.
-------
Karger
Lobert..........................Lobert
McLean........................McLean
M. Mitchell....................M. Mitchell


Tris Speaker played his first full season in 1909. The Ramly set was issued early in 1909; therefore, Tris was not included
in the Ramly set. Tris appears in the 1910 series of the AC and T206 sets.

Dave Shean played with the Phillies 1908-09....and for unexplainable reasons the Ramly set portays only one Phillies player
(Bransfield).

B.Brown and Hall are Horizontal cards that were issued in the 1910 series of the AC set. All five of the Horizontal cards in
the AC set were issued in the tough 1910 series.

My theory is based on studying these two sets. And, I cannot accept what I have presented here is simply the result of
mere coincidences.

Look, it's just a theory....but, I respect your skepticism.


TED Z

[jujudrum]

Here are a few more

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Blair

The following compares these two sets with respect to these three teams......

Ramly (1909) ...... American Caramel (AC)....1910 tough series cards

BOSTON AL
-----------
..................................Karger(traded)
..................................Speaker
Stahl...........................Stahl

BOSTON NL
-----------
Graham........................Graham
Ritchey........................Richie
..................................Shean
Sweeney......................Sweeney

CINCI.
-------
Karger
Lobert..........................Lobert
McLean........................McLean
M. Mitchell....................M. Mitchell


Tris Speaker played his first full season in 1909. The Ramly set was issued early in 1909; therefore, Tris was not included
in the Ramly set. Tris appears in the 1910 series of the AC and T206 sets.

Dave Shean played with the Phillies 1908-09....and for unexplainable reasons the Ramly set portays only one Phillies player
(Bransfield).

B.Brown and Hall are Horizontal cards that were issued in the 1910 series of the AC set. All five of the Horizontal cards in
the AC set were issued in the tough 1910 series.

My theory is based on studying these two sets. And, I cannot accept what I have presented here is simply the result of
mere coincidences.

Look, it's just a theory....but, I respect your skepticism.


TED Z

Hi Ted,

I also respect your efforts to find a theory to try to make sense of the E90 issue.

What about this theory? Both Boston teams were terrible in 1907 and 1908 - well below .500 records. Boston was not a great market for American Caramel products. So, when the E90 cards were first issued, they only included Cy Young...the only Boston player with any proven national fan base.

Then in 1909, the Boston AL team turned it around, playing very good ball. At the same time, the sales guys at American Caramel decided to try to expand sales in Boston and New England. So the time was right to add a bunch of Boston players to the set.

Just as likely, I'd say.

Cheers,
Blair

[peterose4hof]

I'm glad you mentioned the McLean as being a toughie. I saw a low-grade McLean at the National that the dealer had listed at $1200 and I thought, wow is that overpriced, McLean's just a common. Now I know better. Thanks!

[tedzan]

Blair

1st.....Circa 1901-1904 in Oxford (PA), the Breisch-Williams Caramel Co. (of E107 fame) marketed their candy products in the Northeast (including New England).
Daniel Lafean [American Caramel (AC) Co. founder] acquired BWC (circa 1905) and incorporated it into his AC Co. So, this supposition of yours does not apply....

"At the same time, the sales guys at American Caramel decided to try to expand sales in Boston and New England."


2nd....AC's E91-C (1910) set depicts Boston AL players, including Karger, Speaker, and Stahl. Therefore, this is consistent with the E90-1 set including these 3
players in their 1910 series.


With the exception of Cy Young (Boston AL), it is very mystifying to me that AC did not portray Boston players in their early series.


TED Z

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

I know they were printed over a 3 year period...does anyone have a breakdown of which cards were likely printed in a given year?

According to Lew Lipset's encyclopedia:
extremely rare; Mitchell (cin), graham, sweeney (bos)
rare; Clarke (pitts), Duffy, Karger, Keeler (horiz), Stahl, Speaker, Walsh
Those were all printed in 1911 (his estimate)

very difficult; Bemis, Bescher, Gibson (rear view), Joss (horiz), Lobert, McLean, Seigle, Shean, Wagner (fld), Young (cleve).
difficult: Bransfield (pink), Brown (chi), Demmitt, Dougherty, Fromme, Howell (windup), Keeler (red), Overall, Schlitzer, Wagner (btg), Wiltse
Those were all printed in 1910 (his estimate) except Fromme and Keeler (red).

These are also on his list of 1910's, but not listed as difficult:
Clement, Hartzell, Irwin, Knight, Leach, Mitchell (NY), Oakes, O'Leary, Phelps, Richie, Stone, Upp, Willis


Personally I love alot of the action poses, but only if the lips aren't too red. Willis has one red lip, but the colors of the sky in the backgraound overshadow that imo!


Here are my two:

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tonyo

According to Lew Lipset's encyclopedia:
extremely rare; Mitchell (cin), graham, sweeney (bos)
rare; Clarke (pitts), Duffy, Karger, Keeler (horiz), Stahl, Speaker, Walsh
Those were all printed in 1911 (his estimate)

very difficult; Bemis, Bescher, Gibson (rear view), Joss (horiz), Lobert, McLean, Seigle, Shean, Wagner (fld), Young (cleve).
difficult: Bransfield (pink), Brown (chi), Demmitt, Dougherty, Fromme, Howell (windup), Keeler (red), Overall, Schlitzer, Wagner (btg), Wiltse
Those were all printed in 1910 (his estimate) except Fromme and Keeler (red).

These are also on his list of 1910's, but not listed as difficult:
Clement, Hartzell, Irwin, Knight, Leach, Mitchell (NY), Oakes, O'Leary, Phelps, Richie, Stone, Upp, Willis

Since Lew published his encyclopedia, many of us E90-1 collectors/dealers have updated Lew's level of scarcity list as so:

The last series (very tough) was most likely issued in the Summer of 1910 (this is based on certain player trades).
And, it comprises of......

Harry Bemis
Bob Bescher
Buster Brown.....horizontal
Fred Clarke (Pitts)
Hugh Duffy
Peaches Graham
Charlie Hall.....horizontal
Addie Joss.....horizontal
Willie Keeler (NY Nat'l).....horizontal
Ed Karger
Hans Lobert
Larry McLean
Mike Mitchell (Cinci)
Johnny Seigle.....horizontal
Dave Shean
Tris Speaker
Jake Stahl
Bill Sweeney
Jerry Upp
Ed Walsh
Vic Willis
Cy Young (Cleve)




Furthermore, I'm not certain if this pose of Wagner is considered very tough; and, was possibly included in the 1910 series. It appears to have been drawn
by the same artist that did the Speaker card. Some say it should be included in this very tough 1910 series.

What is your opinion of the scarcity of this Wagner card ?


NOTE.....This list is subject to modification, I welcome your inputs.


TED Z

[HRBAKER]

A few A's:

[joeadcock]

Here is a couple of my not in such good condition E90-1's.

[joeadcock]

A few others

[wrapperguy]

Agree completely that the Gibson back view is very difficult. It is the last card I need to finish the set and I have only seen one in a year and missed bidding on it. The joy is in the hunt....

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Blair

1st.....Circa 1901-1904 in Oxford (PA), the Breisch-Williams Caramel Co. (of E107 fame) marketed their candy products in the Northeast (including New England).
Daniel Lafean [American Caramel (AC) Co. founder] acquired BWC (circa 1905) and incorporated it into his AC Co. So, this supposition of yours does not apply....

"At the same time, the sales guys at American Caramel decided to try to expand sales in Boston and New England."


2nd....AC's E91-C (1910) set depicts Boston AL players, including Karger, Speaker, and Stahl. Therefore, this is consistent with the E90-1 set including these 3
players in their 1910 series.


With the exception of Cy Young (Boston AL), it is very mystifying to me that AC did not portray Boston players in their early series.


TED Z

Hi Ted,

To be clear, I never said AC had no presence in New England. I said they wanted to expand sales there. We all know that baseball cards were promotional items used with the end goal of increasing sales and brand loyalty.

I am not a candy company researcher by any stretch, but I have read in multiple places that New England was a very competitive market for candy makers. Especially so because there was a lot of local competition from MA and the area.

This from the most recent Goodwin catalog regarding E94: "The George Close Candy Company operated in one of America’s candy making hotbeds, Cambridge, Massachusetts. Prior to WWII, no fewer than 66 candy companies operated full time in Cambridge."

From where I'm sitting, I can't disprove your Ramly contract theory and you can't disprove my sales theory.

Interesting stuff.

Cheers,
Blair

[Bosox Blair]

Ted,

What do you make of the fact that E92 Dockman features Shean as a Boston NL player (if anything)? I have seen Dockman dated as a 1909 set...so if Ramly had Boston (including Shean) locked up with contracts, Dockman didn't care? Or maybe Dockman is a 1910 set too?

Interesting since the E92 poses overlap with E90-1 as well...

Cheers,
Blair

[Bosox Blair]

I'll stop writing and show a few cards:

[Bosox Blair]

Couple more here:

[Bosox Blair]

Oh yeah, here's another Boston AL card that is a bit tougher than "common":

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

Ted,

What do you make of the fact that E92 Dockman features Shean as a Boston NL player (if anything)? I have seen Dockman dated as a 1909 set...so if Ramly had Boston (including Shean) locked up with contracts, Dockman didn't care? Or maybe Dockman is a 1910 set too?

Interesting since the E92 poses overlap with E90-1 as well...

Cheers,
Blair

Blair

I am not sure I understand.....David Shean is not pictured in the Ramly set. Please clarify ?

Shean was traded from the Phillies to the Boston Doves on July 16, 1909.

And is it possible that the Dockman set was produced in 1910 (instead of 1909) ? Perhaps, Yes.

We have discovered that some of the E-sets have been mis-dated. For example, the E90-1 set
is catalogued as 1909-1911. My research indicates that it should be dated as a 1908-1910 set.


TED Z

[tedzan]

As the "myth" claims....Wagner was an anti-cigarette guy. So, with his appearance on most of the E-cards,
can we assume that he was quite fond of caramel candy


..



TED Z

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Blair

I am not sure I understand.....David Shean is not pictured in the Ramly set. Please clarify ?

Shean was traded from the Phillies to the Boston Doves on July 16, 1909.

And is it possible that the Dockman set was produced in 1910 (instead of 1909) ? Perhaps, Yes.

We have discovered that some of the E-sets have been mis-dated. For example, the E90-1 set
is catalogued as 1909-1911. My research indicates that it should be dated as a 1908-1910 set.


TED Z

Hi Ted,

I was just referring back to your earlier post in this thread (#19) where you listed Shean as one of the tougher late-issued E90-1 cards and you stated in that post your theory that Ramly had the rights to these players for 1909. I understood you to be including Shean and also quite a few others in your list who did not actually have Ramly cards, like Tris Speaker, etc.

Maybe I'm not clear on what your theory is?

I take your point on the dating of sets...some could be either 1909 or 1910 depending on what time of year they were issued.

Cheers,
Blair

[TheBig6]

Rob, Good luck with the set should you decide.
It's a great set and prices are alot more reasonable than they were a few years ago. Rarties excluded.
Heres my few examples

[ScottFandango]

there is so much to talk about/debate in this set...

good stuff...

one of the rarest cards has not been mentioned:

stone LH ...less than 20 graded copies!!! wow