Let's Talk E90-1

[tedzan]

Boston team collectors of this set certainly have a tough time finding their guys. A number of the scarce cards
that were printed in the last (1910) series represent the two Boston teams:

Boston AL......

Hall (horiz.)
Karger
Speaker
Stahl

Boston NL......

B. Brown (horiz.)
Graham
Richie
Shean
Bill Sweeney


A wild theory of mine suggests that Ramly (Worcester, MA) had the rights to these players in 1909; therefore,
the American Caramel Co. could not portray these Boston players in their early series.


TED Z

[tbob]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Boston team collectors of this set certainly have a tough time finding their guys. A number of the scarce cards
that were printed in the last (1910) series represent the two Boston teams:

Boston AL......

Hall (horiz.)
Karger
Speaker
Stahl

Boston NL......

B. Brown (horiz.)
Graham
Richie
Shean
Bill Sweeney


A wild theory of mine suggests that Ramly (Worcester, MA) had the rights to these players in 1909; therefore,
the American Caramel Co. could not portray these Boston players in their early series.


TED Z

Ted you may be on to something there.
The two horizontal cards seem to be tough because collectors really like horizontal cards but all the others are just plain tough, especially Dave Shean and Tris Speaker. Why the McLean seems to be on everyone's want list is another story. That was my 3rd toughest card behind the above two. Others say it is THE toughest. I know a couple of E90-1 collectors who have settled for putting the E92 Dockman McLean (same pose etc.) in their sets until they can find the E90-1 one.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Nice cards everyone!

Here are my two. Not quite one par with some of those already posted, but I love them just the same.


Thanks,

AndyH


.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tbob

Ted you may be on to something there.
The two horizontal cards seem to be tough because collectors really like horizontal cards but all the others are just plain tough, especially Dave Shean and Tris Speaker. Why the McLean seems to be on everyone's want list is another story. That was my 3rd toughest card behind the above two. Others say it is THE toughest. I know a couple of E90-1 collectors who have settled for putting the E92 Dockman McLean (same pose etc.) in their sets until they can find the E90-1 one.

Thanks for bringing up McLean....he was printed in the last series (1910) and his E90 card is indeed very tough. Expanding on my Ramly / American Caramel theory,
further comparison of the Ramly set roster indicates that they may have controlled the rights to several Cincinatti players......

Karger
Larry McLean
Mike Mitchell

And, as you well know these 3 guys are all very tough E90 cards; and, were printed in the last series (short-printed that is).


TED Z

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Boston team collectors of this set certainly have a tough time finding their guys. A number of the scarce cards
that were printed in the last (1910) series represent the two Boston teams:

Boston AL......

Hall (horiz.)
Karger
Speaker
Stahl

Boston NL......

B. Brown (horiz.)
Graham
Richie
Shean
Bill Sweeney


A wild theory of mine suggests that Ramly (Worcester, MA) had the rights to these players in 1909; therefore,
the American Caramel Co. could not portray these Boston players in their early series.


TED Z

Hi Ted,

While I know there is a big difference between having rights and exercising rights, I have to note that there is no Speaker and no Hall in T204. Nor was there a B. Brown card or a Shean card in T204. Not so sure about the theory...

Cheers,
Blair

[tedzan]

Blair

The following compares these two sets with respect to these three teams......

Ramly (1909) ...... American Caramel (AC)....1910 tough series cards

BOSTON AL
-----------
..................................Karger(traded)
..................................Speaker
Stahl...........................Stahl

BOSTON NL
-----------
Graham........................Graham
Ritchey........................Richie
..................................Shean
Sweeney......................Sweeney

CINCI.
-------
Karger
Lobert..........................Lobert
McLean........................McLean
M. Mitchell....................M. Mitchell


Tris Speaker played his first full season in 1909. The Ramly set was issued early in 1909; therefore, Tris was not included
in the Ramly set. Tris appears in the 1910 series of the AC and T206 sets.

Dave Shean played with the Phillies 1908-09....and for unexplainable reasons the Ramly set portays only one Phillies player
(Bransfield).

B.Brown and Hall are Horizontal cards that were issued in the 1910 series of the AC set. All five of the Horizontal cards in
the AC set were issued in the tough 1910 series.

My theory is based on studying these two sets. And, I cannot accept what I have presented here is simply the result of
mere coincidences.

Look, it's just a theory....but, I respect your skepticism.


TED Z

[jujudrum]

Here are a few more

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Blair

The following compares these two sets with respect to these three teams......

Ramly (1909) ...... American Caramel (AC)....1910 tough series cards

BOSTON AL
-----------
..................................Karger(traded)
..................................Speaker
Stahl...........................Stahl

BOSTON NL
-----------
Graham........................Graham
Ritchey........................Richie
..................................Shean
Sweeney......................Sweeney

CINCI.
-------
Karger
Lobert..........................Lobert
McLean........................McLean
M. Mitchell....................M. Mitchell


Tris Speaker played his first full season in 1909. The Ramly set was issued early in 1909; therefore, Tris was not included
in the Ramly set. Tris appears in the 1910 series of the AC and T206 sets.

Dave Shean played with the Phillies 1908-09....and for unexplainable reasons the Ramly set portays only one Phillies player
(Bransfield).

B.Brown and Hall are Horizontal cards that were issued in the 1910 series of the AC set. All five of the Horizontal cards in
the AC set were issued in the tough 1910 series.

My theory is based on studying these two sets. And, I cannot accept what I have presented here is simply the result of
mere coincidences.

Look, it's just a theory....but, I respect your skepticism.


TED Z

Hi Ted,

I also respect your efforts to find a theory to try to make sense of the E90 issue.

What about this theory? Both Boston teams were terrible in 1907 and 1908 - well below .500 records. Boston was not a great market for American Caramel products. So, when the E90 cards were first issued, they only included Cy Young...the only Boston player with any proven national fan base.

Then in 1909, the Boston AL team turned it around, playing very good ball. At the same time, the sales guys at American Caramel decided to try to expand sales in Boston and New England. So the time was right to add a bunch of Boston players to the set.

Just as likely, I'd say.

Cheers,
Blair

[peterose4hof]

I'm glad you mentioned the McLean as being a toughie. I saw a low-grade McLean at the National that the dealer had listed at $1200 and I thought, wow is that overpriced, McLean's just a common. Now I know better. Thanks!

[tedzan]

Blair

1st.....Circa 1901-1904 in Oxford (PA), the Breisch-Williams Caramel Co. (of E107 fame) marketed their candy products in the Northeast (including New England).
Daniel Lafean [American Caramel (AC) Co. founder] acquired BWC (circa 1905) and incorporated it into his AC Co. So, this supposition of yours does not apply....

"At the same time, the sales guys at American Caramel decided to try to expand sales in Boston and New England."


2nd....AC's E91-C (1910) set depicts Boston AL players, including Karger, Speaker, and Stahl. Therefore, this is consistent with the E90-1 set including these 3
players in their 1910 series.


With the exception of Cy Young (Boston AL), it is very mystifying to me that AC did not portray Boston players in their early series.


TED Z

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Blair

1st.....Circa 1901-1904 in Oxford (PA), the Breisch-Williams Caramel Co. (of E107 fame) marketed their candy products in the Northeast (including New England).
Daniel Lafean [American Caramel (AC) Co. founder] acquired BWC (circa 1905) and incorporated it into his AC Co. So, this supposition of yours does not apply....

"At the same time, the sales guys at American Caramel decided to try to expand sales in Boston and New England."


2nd....AC's E91-C (1910) set depicts Boston AL players, including Karger, Speaker, and Stahl. Therefore, this is consistent with the E90-1 set including these 3
players in their 1910 series.


With the exception of Cy Young (Boston AL), it is very mystifying to me that AC did not portray Boston players in their early series.


TED Z

Hi Ted,

To be clear, I never said AC had no presence in New England. I said they wanted to expand sales there. We all know that baseball cards were promotional items used with the end goal of increasing sales and brand loyalty.

I am not a candy company researcher by any stretch, but I have read in multiple places that New England was a very competitive market for candy makers. Especially so because there was a lot of local competition from MA and the area.

This from the most recent Goodwin catalog regarding E94: "The George Close Candy Company operated in one of America’s candy making hotbeds, Cambridge, Massachusetts. Prior to WWII, no fewer than 66 candy companies operated full time in Cambridge."

From where I'm sitting, I can't disprove your Ramly contract theory and you can't disprove my sales theory.

Interesting stuff.

Cheers,
Blair

[Bosox Blair]

Ted,

What do you make of the fact that E92 Dockman features Shean as a Boston NL player (if anything)? I have seen Dockman dated as a 1909 set...so if Ramly had Boston (including Shean) locked up with contracts, Dockman didn't care? Or maybe Dockman is a 1910 set too?

Interesting since the E92 poses overlap with E90-1 as well...

Cheers,
Blair