Just popped this T206 out of its plastic, guess what grade it was given ?

[tedzan]

Another gem to add to my AMERICAN BEAUTY collection. I had to let Davy Jones "breathe". Nice picture....
no creases....a little "fatter" than most American Beauty's....and, an unusually well centered back.

So, what grade would you assign to this card ?







T-Rex TED

[packs]

Ink spot. Looks like some surface wear. I'm going to guess a 1.5.

[FrankWakefield]

Sgc30

[Rob D.]

In the "old" days," many dealers who were selling it would have said: excellent-mint.

In the "old days," many of those same dealers who were negotiating to buy it from a collector would have said: good.

Moral to the story: TPG has ruined the hobby.

[steve B]

Odd but probably factory right edge? I'll say an undeserved A.

Nice looking card.

Steve B

[phikappapsi]

I'm guessing AUTH

The right edge looks pretty hacked up. If they didn't deem it trimmed, then I'm guessing 2. Some staining, moderate corner wear, and some very mild paper loss.

[usernamealreadytaken]

The suspense is killing me!

With TPG today, that card could grade between "Authentic" to "EX (5)."

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

In the "old" days," many dealers who were selling it would have said: excellent-mint.

In the "old days," many of those same dealers who were negotiating to buy it from a collector would have said: good.

Moral to the story: TPG has ruined the hobby.

Hilarious!

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

In the "old" days," many dealers who were selling it would have said: excellent-mint.

In the "old days," many of those same dealers who were negotiating to buy it from a collector would have said: good.

Moral to the story: TPG has ruined the hobby.

And now dealers that are selling it will say its severely under-graded

When buying the same card its really over graded

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

I'm guessing AUTH

The right edge looks pretty hacked up. If they didn't deem it trimmed, then I'm guessing 2. Some staining, moderate corner wear, and some very mild paper loss.

+1

[ethicsprof]

Ted,
It looks good to me---which would be a B(80ish) at the university but
an sgc 30 in the weird Weltanschauung of vintage card grading.

congrats, no matter what the plastic said, ole buddy

all the best,
barry

[GrayGhost]

SGC 20 perhaps.

[T206Collector]

Looks scissor cut on the right edge -- i'm going with AUTH

[7nohitter]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

I'm guessing AUTH

The right edge looks pretty hacked up. If they didn't deem it trimmed, then I'm guessing 2. Some staining, moderate corner wear, and some very mild paper loss.

I agree

[tedzan]

There is a rough "factory-cut" on the upper half of the right edge. I've seen this type of cut on other American Beauty cards that are "on the wild (wide) side"
as is this Davy Jones card.

Whatever, those of you who are saying there is so-called "paper loss", please identify it to the rest of us ? I've looked closely at this card (front/back) and do
not see any paper loss.

Carry on, guys...........






TED Z

[3-2-count]

Great looking card. I'll say authentic as well.

[phikappapsi]

Originally Posted by tedzan

There is a rough "factory-cut" on the upper half of the right edge. I've seen this type of cut on other American Beauty cards that are "on the wild (wide) side"
as is this Davy Jones card.

Whatever, those of you who are saying there is so-called "paper loss", please identify it to the rest of us ? I've looked closely at this card (front/back) and do
not see any paper loss.

Carry on, guys...........






TED Z

So, I'm guessing it got a grade in line with what we're all saying, and you think it should be higher, so you broke it out? Are you going to tell us the grade it got?

As for the "rough cut" I've seen some poor factory edges before, but none that rough or wavy...which makes me think it's been hand trimmed.

As for paper loss, you can see it on the back at the top, the whole upper rear edge has lost the layer 1 of the paper, as well as the front lower left corner, unless it's a much softer corner than I initially guessed, it looks like there's a layer of paper loss their too.

[Abravefan11]

Based on the scan I believe Ted is correct that it's a rough factory cut on the right side. What effect this had on the grade is hard to say. I do think the border chipping and most importantly the scuff across the middle of the front of the card would relegate it to a 30 at best and likely a 20. The TPG may have given it an A based on the rough cut.

[Cardboard Junkie]

I'll guess "Auth" possibly a "1" ? Aloha, dave ps big distraction for me is the front abrasion across the middle front (and the mk ink spot). Also might add that if it was from the D. Young collection it probably graded a 9

[CW]

The original numerical grade is irrelevant, as now this piece of vintage cardboard has been forever freed from the evil confines of its plastic tomb, which was bestowed upon us by the evil entity known as..... the TPG!!

[E93]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

In the "old" days," many dealers who were selling it would have said: excellent-mint.

In the "old days," many of those same dealers who were negotiating to buy it from a collector would have said: good.

Moral to the story: TPG has ruined the hobby.

+1

Right on target.
JimB

[E93]

As for the TPG assessment, for all the reasons mentioned above my guess would be "authentic", but if given a numerical grade, PSA 2/SGC 30.
JimB

[tiger8mush]

psa 3 (mk) or SGC 20

nice card Ted, no matter the technical grade.

[chaddurbin]

since no name of tpg was given...i'd go PRO 8

[iwantitiwinit]

PSA 2 (mk) is what I think it deserves.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

since no name of tpg was given...i'd go PRO 8

Now that's funny.

[steve B]

I don't think the marks at left center on the front are a scuff. Looks more like a bit of stray red ink.

If the two discolored areas in the top border aren't paper loss, I think the grades mentioned so far are a bit harsh.

While the rough cut probably sent it into the A category, if it didn't I'd say maybe a 40/3

I understand why they won't give numbers to cards with rough factory cuts or factory but undersize cards, but I really wish they did, maybe with a qualifier. (Yea, some bias. My two that were rejected were one rough cut and one undersize. except they accepted a non AB that was AB narrow and more undersize than the one that was rejected.)

Steve B

[E93]

Ted,
Time to tell us what it was graded.
JimB

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

So, I'm guessing it got a grade in line with what we're all saying, and you think it should be higher, so you broke it out? Are you going to tell us the grade it got?

As for the "rough cut" I've seen some poor factory edges before, but none that rough or wavy...which makes me think it's been hand trimmed.

My, oh my....
....you sure have a suspicios mind ? As many on this forum know, I am no fan of "graded" cards. When I acquire them, I usually separate the cardboard from the plastic.
Perhaps, re-grading cards in hopes of a higher grade is your modus operandi ? ?

And, that's fine....but, do not judge others as such, when you do not know what they collect or how they collect it.

The following scans are samples of how I collect, store and display my sportscards........













Hey guys....
I'd say that we've had enough inputs here, so this afternoon I will post the Davy Jones card scan (prior to my extricating it from its rectangular device).
I have to go out now and attend to my "honey-do" list


TED Z

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys....
I'd say that we've had enough inputs here, so this afternoon I will post the Davy Jones card scan (prior to my extricating it from its rectangular device).
I have to go out now and attend to my "honey-do" list

TED Z

Could you also tweet it in case some of us are away from our computers?

[phikappapsi]

Certainly didn't mean to offend, nor was I judging, and certainly not saying you trimmed the card.

All I was saying was it 'seems' as though it came back with a grade far off from what you agree with (hence starting a thread)

I ve never sent a card in for regrade, I generally only buy a graded card if I actually agree with the grade it has, that way I avoid overpaying... Too much risk buying a card you think is under graded, then you find a flaw, and realize you're stuck with something you didn't want. So no, I don't crack slabs. That said, I think the way you present your cards is wonderful!

I was simply trying, in my limited estimating skills, to guess an appropriate grade, which I said was either auth if deemed trimmed, or 2 if deemed factory cut

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

Certainly didn't mean to offend, nor was I judging, and certainly not saying you trimmed the card.

All I was saying was it 'seems' as though it came back with a grade far off from what you agree with (hence starting a thread)

I ve never sent a card in for regrade, I generally only buy a graded card if I actually agree with the grade it has, that way I avoid overpaying... Too much risk buying a card you think is under graded, then you find a flaw, and realize you're stuck with something you didn't want. So no, I don't crack slabs. That said, I think the way you present your cards is wonderful!

I was simply trying, in my limited estimating skills, to guess an appropriate grade, which I said was either auth if deemed trimmed, or 2 if deemed factory cut

I was simply curious if anyone else thought (as I did) that this card deserved a numerical grade ?

And, I say this strictly for the following 2 reasons......

Since this T206 has an AMERICAN BEAUTY (AB) back, how can SGC discern that it was trimmed ?
Considering the fact that there is no consistency in the dimensions of AB cards.

Furthermore, I've seen many, many AB cards in the past 32 years that I've been collecting T206's.
Occasionally, some of them do have rough Factory-cuts very similar to this card. Some of these
rough-cut cards have been assigned numerical grades by PSA or SGC.


Anyhow, you (and a number of responses here) have guessed correctly that it was graded an "A".



..



Thanks for everyone's responses.

TED Z

[tedzan]

Hey guys

Some here may be annoyed if I prolong this "game"; and then, others here will be happy to continue playing this game. So for the latter, I am posting two
more of my AMERICAN BEAUTY's for you to guess their grades (A .... 10 >> 60).






Thanx for your consideration,


TED Z

[phikappapsi]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys

Some here may be annoyed if I prolong this "game"; and then, others here will be happy to continue playing this game. So for the latter, I am posting two
more of my AMERICAN BEAUTY's for you to guess their grades (A .... 10 >> 60).






Thanx for your consideration,


TED Z

I'm going to say PSA 2(mc) on the left, and PSA 1 poor on the right

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

I'm going to say PSA 2(mc) on the left, and PSA 1 poor on the right

They are in SGC holders

SGC 3 Gandil and SGC 1.5 Chance

Ted as a big obsessive collector of AB backed t205's I have seen several that have some weird cuts and always seem to be on the upper right side of the cards. My latest is a SGC 70/5.5 AB Mattern. Has the same weird cut that looks like a trim job. See the scans on the pickups post. Don't know if you can see but I am away right now or I would scan it and post it

[cfc1909]

McGraw.jpgMcgrawb.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys

Some here may be annoyed if I prolong this "game"; and then, others here will be happy to continue playing this game. So for the latter, I am posting two
more of my AMERICAN BEAUTY's for you to guess their grades (A .... 10 >> 60).

........................ Gandil is an SGC 60 .................................................. .................................................. Chance is an SGC 10





TED Z

[Rob D.]

Great cards, Ted.

Looking forward to seeing Gandil get a chance to "breathe."

Or has he already been freed?

[danmckee]

TPG has ruined the hobby

+1

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

In the "old" days," many dealers who were selling it would have said: excellent-mint.

In the "old days," many of those same dealers who were negotiating to buy it from a collector would have said: good.

Moral to the story: TPG has ruined the hobby.

In the "new days" there are color fake fro joys slabbed by PSA

In the "new days" there is a trimmed T206 Wagner slabbed by PSA

In the "new days" there are PSA graded T206's in SCP auctions that have impossible front back combinations

In the "new days" a $50.00 Ozzie Smith PSA 10 sells for $20,000.00

Moral to the story - TPG ruined the hobby and is a cancer

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by danmckee

In the "new days" there are color fake fro joys slabbed by PSA

In the "new days" there is a trimmed T206 Wagner slabbed by PSA

In the "new days" there are PSA graded T206's in SCP auctions that have impossible front back combinations

In the "new days" a $50.00 Ozzie Smith PSA 10 sells for $20,000.00

Moral to the story - TPG ruined the hobby and is a cancer

Excellent points, Dan. It's good to know that you've stopped having your cards submitted for TPG and aren't selling slabbed cards any longer.

Keep fighting the good fight.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Excellent points, Dan. It's good to know that you've stopped having your cards submitted for TPG and aren't selling slabbed cards any longer.

Keep fighting the good fight.

If only they had graded HIS cards a little higher ...

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

If only they had graded HIS cards a little higher ...

.........or not lost them.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Excellent points, Dan. It's good to know that you've stopped having your cards submitted for TPG and aren't selling slabbed cards any longer.

Keep fighting the good fight.

I have stopped submitting actually Rob after my last SGC debacle with the Old Judges and the Maryland T205 find.

But you will still see slabbed cards in my cases and on my store.

If I buy them already slabbed and they were bought for resale, then I usually sell them slabbed.

If I buy them slabbed and they are for my personal set, well I think we already know where that giant box of broken slabs in my basement came from.

take care
Dan

[T206Collector]

If you believe that the internet has given our hobby a terrific boost, it is naive to ignore the positive impact that third party grading has had. While graders make mistakes -- being only human after all -- it is a tremendous comfort to know in most cases what flaws a card has that are not visible in a computer scan. Not only do you have a reasonable expectation of what you are buying, but when it is time to sell, you have a reasonable likelihood of selling the same card you bought.

Long gone are the days of the card purchased through the mail that was advertised as Nrmt/MT, only to have it show up in VG -- and then having to sell it as a VG card when the time is right.

To ignore all that good because of a few negative experiences is really missing the forest for the trees.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by danmckee

In the "new days" there are color fake fro joys slabbed by PSA

In the "new days" there is a trimmed T206 Wagner slabbed by PSA

In the "new days" there are PSA graded T206's in SCP auctions that have impossible front back combinations

In the "new days" a $50.00 Ozzie Smith PSA 10 sells for $20,000.00

Moral to the story - TPG ruined the hobby and is a cancer

I do agree with the Ozzie Smith point, it is well taken I believe.

As to your other points, color fake fro joys, trimmed T206 Wagners and T206 impossible front back combinations existed well before the grading companies, they existed for sale on the internet, in autions and at card shows before grading companies. That goes for any and all fradulantly produced or altered cards. The Pete Rose rookie counterfeits that flooded the market came well before grading companies.

The grading companies IMO have done a great job at weeding out many, upon many of these fake, fraudulant and altered cards from the market. Are they perfect, of course not. But they have eliminated tons of these types of cards from the market and for that I think they should be commended.

With any grading/authentication system cards will slip through the system. I think the number of cards that correctly get rejected for being fake, trimmed and altered far out number the cards that slip through the system. And IMO that is a huge benefit to the hobby and collectors.

[frankbmd]

All systems are flawed, but

If I buy a loaf of bread that has a bit of mold on it when I open it, do I stop eating all together?

If my car develops an oil leak or a squeaky wheel, do I take an axe to it and start walking and never buy another?

If a card dealer sells me $50,000 worth of raw cards for $100,000 claiming they are NM and then years later, when I need some cash, offers me $20,000 because the same cards are only VG in his humble opinion, do I shoot him?

I would submit that the answers are no, no and no.

In the first case the merchant would likely replace the loaf of bread or refund my money and I would continue eating.

In the second case, the dealer or a mechanic would fix the problem and I would continue driving.

In the third case my $50,000 worth of "graded" cards would average EX, a few might be NM and some might be VG, even if they were all in slabs with PSA 5 or SGC 60 affixed. Reasonable sellers and buyers could agree upon the market value at the time of purchase and at the time of sale. The original buyer might make a profit or a loss depending on market values at the time of purchase and the time of sale. The original dealer could make a "reasonable" profit at the time of sale and then make a "reasonable" profit when he resells the same card. Plus he would not need to invest in a bullet proof vest and if he was savvy, he would find that he could expand his market on something called the internet.

I have over 1000 graded cards and probably 100,000 raw cards. I once placed 237 raw cards spread out on my dining room table and observed them for a week. They remained in the same place for the week, became a bit dusty, but not once did any of them take a breath.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by markf31

......color fake fro joys, trimmed T206 Wagners and T206 impossible front back combinations existed well before the grading companies......

markf31

Sorry to differ with you regarding your above statement. The T206 impossible front/back combos are a relatively recent phenomena. A bunch of
the "re-fronted" fakes surfaced circa 1999-2000.

These fake cards were modified by professional paper restorer(s) to the extent that they fooled PSA and SGC graders.

Here are some examples of these T206 impossible front/back fakes that have been graded in the past 12 years......

Green Cobb / Red HINDU

Matty portrait / Red HINDU

Cobb (bat off shoulder) / PIEDMONT 150

Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l / POLAR BEAR

Green Cobb / CYCLE 350 ...... this one recently sold for $3000 in an auction


This is just a sample, as there are quite a few more, and perhaps others on this forum will identify more of them.

P.S. Quite a number of collectors payed some big $$$$ for some of these cards, having trusted the TPG's. And, as is noted in the last example....
there are still a few of these fakes in circulation.


TED Z

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here are some examples of these T206 impossible front/back fakes that have been graded in the past 12 years......

TED Z

Similarly, what is scary is that many of these were called out due to their front/back combos being impossible, not due to catching the alteration. How many cards (slabbed or raw) are deemed to be authentic simply because the front/back combo is possible, yet the card has been altered to make a more desirable (expensive) front/back combination?