Where is the second ledger of T cards?

[G1911]

Much new information has been found on the boxing sub-forum lately on the larger context of the ATC, ALC, the previously unknown-in-card-world Brett Lithography and the printing of T cards beyond boxing subjects (https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=309276), and some discussed in Pat's thread on the implications to T206.

One of the key pieces of evidence is this ledger/journal/possibly court-prep, that my poor self didn't bid on last year. It includes numerous N and T sets, but the auction listing at Lelands only shows a few select pages. I was hoping someone here might have been the winner, or know who is. Presumably whoever spent $8,000 on it is an active hobbyist . Whoever has possession of the material could do a great service to the research side of the hobby and to our understanding of what happened and how to create these sets, so I am hoping they will chime in and share images of the pages or be willing to discuss the book. Mr. Fullgraff appears to have been an instrumental link between the ATC and the lithographers.

There is no evidence baseball cards specifically are in this book, but it seems to me to be relevant to the context of the baseball T sets and how they were designed, printed, and issued and the business relationship between the companies responsible for this brief golden era of card production. If this is considered off topic, I apologize in advance! Feel free to delete

[G1911]

It's been a year, so I figure it's okay to bump. The odds that this item is in the possession of a board member or someone in their social network seems pretty high. The material in here would be of immense value to hobby research if it's owner would be willing to share its contents.

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=97657

[Pat R]

Greg, when you originally posted this thread I was hoping the person that purchased the book or someone with more information would respond, there's some very useful information just in the few images Leland's posted.

In the write up they give credit to Fullgraff for coming up with the Turkey Red cigarette name but to me it looks it might have been Julius (I can't make out the last name) Bionter? that came up with the Turkey Red name.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Greg, when you originally posted this thread I was hoping the person that purchased the book or someone with more information would respond, there's some very useful information just in the few images Leland's posted.

In the write up they give credit to Fullgraff for coming up with the Turkey Red cigarette name but to me it looks it might have been Julius (I can't make out the last name) Bionter? that came up with the Turkey Red name.

I think you are right and it is definitely "this brand [coined?] and named, January 30th, 1909 by Julius Bionter" by the prototype pack art. They are reading the purple stamp of Fullgraff's name that appears to be on most pages as the conclusion of the statement, instead of the statement being written around the stamp.

I have never been able to find anything on who this man was. We found a lot on Fullgraff, though there's a lot more we need, but I have never been able to find anything on this "Bionter" [I'm pretty sure that's the name, the second letter clearly has a "i" style dot] fellow. He doesn't appear in any of the ATC/AL/Brett documents I have found or in the old industry periodicals, that I can find. Unless I am reading his name wrong.

I would not have expected Turkey Red to be such a new brand.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think you are right and it is definitely "this brand [coined?] and named, January 30th, 1909 by Julius Bionter" by the prototype pack art. They are reading the purple stamp of Fullgraff's name that appears to be on most pages as the conclusion of the statement, instead of the statement being written around the stamp.

I have never been able to find anything on who this man was. We found a lot on Fullgraff, though there's a lot more we need, but I have never been able to find anything on this "Bionter" [I'm pretty sure that's the name, the second letter clearly has a "i" style dot] fellow. He doesn't appear in any of the ATC/AL/Brett documents I have found or in the old industry periodicals, that I can find. Unless I am reading his name wrong.

I would not have expected Turkey Red to be such a new brand.

Yeah I've never been able to find anything about Turkey Red cigarettes before 1909 but I did just find something very interesting by searching Julius Bion instead of Bionter.

img192.jpg

img193.jpg

There was a lot of information on Julius Bion that I'm going to go back and check on.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Yeah I've never been able to find anything about Turkey Red cigarettes before 1909 but I did just find something very interesting by searching Julius Bion instead of Bionter.

Attachment 543709

Attachment 543710

There was a lot of information on Julius Bion that I'm going to go back and check on.

I never would have thought to shorten the name. 49 year gap, but a lithographer naming the brand would, while odd the surface, mesh with other things we found. It still surprises me just how much of American Tobacco’s business was apparently outsourced to lithographers in a loose network of firms who doubled as marketing and brand managers. Fullgraff at present seems to be not only the architect of many (possibly the T card renaissance as a whole) of these sets but the connection between these industries’ odd relationships. As a huge monopoly I would have expected them to have more control of their own product than they seem to have had.

[GeoPoto]

"looks to me to say "And not one kick [lick?]. They like it"."

Nothing to add to your research, but I would offer that "kicked" may be the ambiguous word. Kicked was used for complained back then.

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

[G1911]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

"looks to me to say "And not one kick [lick?]. They like it"."

Nothing to add to your research, but I would offer that "kicked" may be the ambiguous word. Kicked was used for complained back then.

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

Thank you, I think this is correct. It says "kick.", shortening "kicked" and explaining the period while making much more sense than my guess that he meant 'lick'.