PSA: N1:Evidence of Trimming

[jcc6252]

Okay, I know I was taking a chance buying a raw card for the purpose of getting it graded and flipping it. But, it hit me harder than I thought when I checked my submission today and it showed:

N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING 1933 Sport Kings 38 Bobby Jones Golf

Now, I am left with a nice card, but possibly unsellable, especially for the price I paid. I bought it on eBay, do you think the seller has an obligation to issue a refund, even though his listing stated No Returns Accepted?

Here is the link to the listing:
http://http:www.ebay.com/itm/331510131479?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks, Jim

[conor912]

I would let him know. Do it cordially and non-confrontationally. He's probably under no obligation to oblige, but it doesn't hurt to ask...he may be willing to work with you. The worst he can say is "go screw", then you're no worse off than you are now.

[jcc6252]

Great idea to do it gracefully, instead of in a demanding tone. And, I had to laugh about your last satatement, but oh so true!

[nsaddict]

He sells graded cards. Could be possible he tried to grade it and got the same results?

[Jobu]

I agree with asking because it never hurts. However, I would have your hiking boots all set so that you are ready when he tells you what you ought to go do because it says the card is authentic but I don't see any guarantees in the listing that it will grade numerically. Sorry that you might have lost out on this one.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by jcc6252

Okay, I know I was taking a chance buying a raw card for the purpose of getting it graded and flipping it. But, it hit me harder than I thought when I checked my submission today and it showed:

N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING 1933 Sport Kings 38 Bobby Jones Golf

Now, I am left with a nice card, but possibly unsellable, especially for the price I paid. I bought it on eBay, do you think the seller has an obligation to issue a refund, even though his listing stated No Returns Accepted?

Here is the link to the listing:
http://http:www.ebay.com/itm/331510131479?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks, Jim

Agree with Conor - I think you could mention it and see if he was willing to work with you on a return, but given his basic description, I'm not sure he has an obligation as long as the card is authentic.

To me, his 'very nice' description gives him an out. If he had tried to affix a formal/informal grade to it (i.e. this card is VG/VG-EX), I think you might have a stronger case. And even then, with the subjectivity of grading, it would still be a tougher sell. But his description is so banal that he's not putting himself out there. I don't even blame him for that since grading is so subjective.

It's tough because a lot of honest sellers probably don't even know if a card is trimmed. They might be more sympathetic to your plight since you have hard evidence - especially since they have a spotless feedback record.

Good luck -

[pclpads]

Sorry this happened to you. Your chances of a refund or an adjustment, if seller stated, "No returns," are likely slim and none . . . and slim just left the room. As Leon always says, "caveat emptor." There is probably a good reason why possibly the most in-demand card in that set isn't in a graded slab. Unfortunately, I think you just found out.

[jcc6252]

Hiking boots are ready. You're right, I think his description is good enough to cover his backside. After reading your posts, I figure there is a good chance he knew it was trimmed. If so, he may be even less likely to grant a refund.

Thanks for all your input and support. If I don't get a satisfactory response from the seller, and end up trying to sell it, I will certainly include the label from PSA for all prospective buyers to see.

[bobbyw8469]

I would send it to SGC and see what they say. If it is indeed trimmed, have them slab it as authentic. Even trimmed, it still looks nicer than those piss poor PSA 1's that sell for $150-$200. Some sellers just want a nice card, no matter that it is trimmed.

[glchen]

I think it looks like the top edge is trimmed, so I don't think it'll be able to get a number grade. It's still worth something Authentic as others have said.

[K-Nole]

100% agree with bobbyw8469,
Send it SGC and have them slab it Authentic (obviously trimmed top left, notice other corners are a bit soft, but upper left is sharp as a razor).
It still will bring you more on the flip side if you sell, then if you sell it RAW, and even if it is trimmed, it is still a pretty sweet card!!!

[bigfanNY]

IMHO I completely disagree with the advice others have given. The card was listed as being in VG shape and a trimmed card is not VG in anybody's book. and although outside Ebay's 30 day window to file they may be willing to step up. Paypal has a protection policy as well and it might help. BOTTOM LINE it is just not cool to sell trimmed cards. And when a TPG finds evidence of Trimming any seller should offer to take the card back. No one likes getting stuck with trimmed cards but it is not ok to crack them out and sell them on ebay and hope the clock ticks before it gets returned by the TPG. On the other hand if seller did not know then he should not have said it was in VG shape should have said he will only say it is authentic and grading is in eye of beholder. Seller absolutely should take the card back. Always two sides of a coin and that is the side I land on.

J

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

IMHO I completely disagree with the advice others have given. The card was listed as being in VG shape and a trimmed card is not VG in anybody's book.
J

That's a totally reasonable position to take and to be honest, if I were the seller, I'd take the card back.

That said, just as a heads up, the Very Good condition isn't the same as a VG grade. eBay's condition categories are completely different than what we use to grade cards. Instead of Mint, Near Mint, EX, etc., their categories are: Brand New, Like New, Very Good, Good, and Acceptable. Why they use them for cards is beyond me - they're more for items like clothing, DVDs, etc.

Technically, calling a trimmed card Very Good, even by their standards, is probably still wrong. But it's just hard to prove that the seller knew it was as such.

[Jantz]

"In PSA We Trust"

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

And that my friends is why graders are valuable

[iwantitiwinit]

I doubt the seller will take the card back, there is a reason it's not graded and it's stated no refunds. You get what you pay for and it continues to amaze me how many people will try and "get a deal" from someone that clearly is versed in selling cards. Notice how there were no other bidders for this card? So essentially you wanted a free look at the card, you bought it with the intention of flipping it now that it doesn't work out for you want your money back? No such thing as a free option.

[jcc6252]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

I doubt the seller will take the card back, there is a reason it's not graded and it's stated no refunds. You get what you pay for and it continues to amaze me how many people will try and "get a deal" from someone that clearly is versed in selling cards. Notice how there were no other bidders for this card? So essentially you wanted a free look at the card, you bought it with the intention of flipping it now that it doesn't work out for you want your money back? No such thing as a free option.

That's funny, it took a while, but finally here's the you deserve what you get comment, you are just like the rest of the smucks who try to get a deal comment. So, I guess I should never buy a nice looking raw card, especially from well "versed" sellers, because we know they would cheat you at any chance they get. They would never stand by their product's quality.
The card passed my inspection, the experts considered it trimmed. I wasn't looking to break the bank, I was looking to get the card slabbed and to sell it for it's graded value, not it's doctored value.

[ullmandds]

It has become a pretty successful marketing ploy over the years...to sell raw...seemingly high grade...altered cards on ebay preying on flippers hopes of grading and making a profit.

Its a risky proposition...live and learn.

[packs]

I think they will side with the seller in this case. His only guarantee on the card was that it was authentic. He didn't state it wasn't altered anywhere and made no guarantees about grading. From outward perspectives you purchased an authentic card and received an authentic card. At least that's my opinion.

[Orioles1954]

From the naked eye, the bottom reverse of that card looks to have been cut with a kitchen knife. You win some. You lose some......I've been in both camps.

[jcc6252]

Packs and Orioles, good points. I have had a couple of success stories buying raw and selling graded. My favorite is I spotted a 1933 #144 Ruth with "stamps on the back" and obviously trimmed, and bought it for 3 figures. Here are the before and after scans, and link to the Heritage Auction results.

http://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/19...a/7085-80322.s

The sale also deserved a mention in the "1933 Goudey Baseball Card Values from the PSA SMR Price Guide" Notes section at the bottom.

...
A PSA NM-MT 8 #29 Foxx sold for $15,152 in 2013
A PSA NM-MT8 #207 Ott sold for $7,771 in 2013
A PSA Authentic #144 Ruth File/Copyright card sold for $38,837 in 2013
A PSA Mint 9 #180 Moore sold for $3,107 in 2013
A PSA NM-MT 8 #207 Ott sold for $7,771 in 2013
...

[bobbyw8469]

Me personally, bid only what you can live with if the card gets an "A" designation. I collect "A" cards anyway, so that doesn't bother me as much, but then again, I am not trying to flip a card for profit. I am on the sellers side with this one. He sold an authentic card and you got an authentic card. There was a reason you were the only bidder on a card that is obviously worth more than opening bid if it was unaltered.

[Jacker_ Cracks]

Originally Posted by jcc6252

Packs and Orioles, good points. I have had a couple of success stories buying raw and selling graded. My favorite is I spotted a 1933 #144 Ruth with "stamps on the back" and obviously trimmed for 3 figures. Here are the before and after scans, and link to the Heritage Auction results.

http://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/19...a/7085-80322.s

The sale also deserved a mention in the "1933 Goudey Baseball Card Values from the PSA SMR Price Guide" Notes section at the bottom.

...
A PSA NM-MT 8 #29 Foxx sold for $15,152 in 2013
A PSA NM-MT8 #207 Ott sold for $7,771 in 2013
A PSA Authentic #144 Ruth File/Copyright card sold for $38,837 in 2013
A PSA Mint 9 #180 Moore sold for $3,107 in 2013
A PSA NM-MT 8 #207 Ott sold for $7,771 in 2013
...

Now that's a NICE return on investment

[drcy]

My opinion is since he picked the Vg grade, he should give a return due to the trimming. I perfectly understand the Vg grade is not a card grade and appears to apply to CDs and the like, but if you read the description it covers major defaults, missing parts and damage. With trading cards, trimming is considered a major fault/damage/missing piece that would seem to be covered by the Very Good grade.

That's just my opinion.

If he hadn't clicked that or other grade box, I would have a different opinion. In fact, if he had merely said in the description "Guaranteed authentic," I would have a different opinion, because as card collectors know trimmed cards can grade "authentic." If someone says only "Guaranteed authentic" he's saying "I ain't saying anything about condition or anything else other than the card is genuine." "Guaranteed authentic and unaltered" is a different phrase, and one that some sellers of raw cards use.

But in the end, it says one should expect a more explicit description about condition/alteration and/or ask questions, in particular if the intent is to submit for a number grade. Other than clicking that ebay vg box, the seller says nothing about condition. I sell on eBay, and bidders regularly send me questions about the item and wait for answers before placing a bid.

[packs]

I don't know. It seems clear in the description that his intentions with the "Very Good" condition choice is not the same as him saying "PSA 3 VG" or "SGC 40 VG". It's more like this card is used but still in nice condition for it's age.

[Edwolf1963]

I believe you can press the issue with eBay (Buyer Protection) and force the refund if he refuses. Considered "not as described", no notation of trimming or alteration in the auction. You will win that battle if you choose to take it up.

[drcy]

That was just my opinion/personal interpretation after reading what eBay's 'very good' specifically says. I also gave this interpretation because there are lower ebay grades for authentic items from which to choose. According to eBay, very good means the item (if music CD) is used and may have expected wear, but is whole and all the parts and pieces are there and there is no major damage/wear. Ebay's lower grades are for when parts (including CD case or booklet) are missing and there is major damage or defect. For many to most card collectors, undisclosed trimming is the worst possible defect for a card, and may even qualify as "parts missing." I understand others disagree with my reading and that's fine. I'm just offering my opinion, not trying to be arbiter. Maybe even eBay will disagree with my opinion.

But, as I also said or implied, if one is buying raw cards to get number graded for flipping, it's prudent to buy from sellers who guarantee, or at least mention, the card is authentic and unaltered. If this seller said, in description or personal message, the card was unaltered, then there would be no question here about whether or not he should accept a return. In this case, the seller says nothing about condition in the description and apparently the winner didn't ask, which results in this thread having different opinions on the matter.

[jcc6252]

I once cracked a card out of an SGC holder and decided to list it while I accumulated more cards for a bigger sub to PSA. Lo and behold, someone purchased it and resubmitted it to SGC. Guess what, it came back as trimmed. The seller requested a refund, and I complied. I even split the grading fees with him. At some point, sellers must realize trimmed means the product was tampered with, and if that is not specifically mentioned in the listing, accepting returns should not be questioned.

[drcy]

I should add that, while I think authenticity has to be guaranteed, I think it's perfectly fine for an eBay seller of raw cards to say "Everything I sell is guaranteed authentic, but I'm not a professional card grader or condition expert and make no guarantee about the condition or what grade this card would receive by PSA or SGC. I'll give refund if the card turns out to be a reprint, but not because you don't get the grade you hope for."

[jcc6252]

For better or worse, here's the reply from the seller when I requested a refund:

"I don't accept returns. The photos of the card accurately portrayed a raw card. I never said I would accept responsibility for the card being graded by PSA. I'm sorry they didn't grade it but that's not my responsibility. PSA is unpredictable. I've had he same experience as you with raw cards. That's the gamble of buying raw cards. Sorry"

I have decided not to further pursue a refund for various reasons. Instead, I have submitted it to SGC to see what they do. I checked the box that says "Check here if you would like SGC to encapsulate any trimmed or color-enhanced card(that is authentic) with the "A" designation". I assume if they don't feel it is trimmed, they will assign a numerical grade. Anyone, please correct me if I am wrong.

I have used PSA many times, but this is my first sub with SGC, so, Bobby, thanks for your suggestion to use that option.

I will post the result when the card is returned from SGC.

[rednecksims]

Originally Posted by jcc6252

For better or worse, here's the reply from the seller when I requested a refund:

"I don't accept returns. The photos of the card accurately portrayed a raw card. I never said I would accept responsibility for the card being graded by PSA. I'm sorry they didn't grade it but that's not my responsibility. PSA is unpredictable. I've had he same experience as you with raw cards. That's the gamble of buying raw cards. Sorry"

I have decided not to further pursue a refund for various reasons. Instead, I have submitted it to SGC to see what they do. I checked the box that says "Check here if you would like SGC to encapsulate any trimmed or color-enhanced card(that is authentic) with the "A" designation". I assume if they don't feel it is trimmed, they will assign a numerical grade. Anyone, please correct me if I am wrong.

I have used PSA many times, but this is my first sub with SGC, so, Bobby, thanks for your suggestion to use that option.

I will post the result when the card is returned from SGC.

For future reference if bought on Ebay you can return any item within 45 days even if it says no returns under Ebay buyer protection policy. You have to open a case through Ebay with the item not as described and just let them know you had it looked at pofessionally and you were told it was altered. It's like him telling you if it came back as fake that it is your issue .

David