Proper action for a stolen package from a Buy/Sell/Trade transaction

[Fred]

Originally Posted by notfast

I’m surprised so many people are talking about USPS insurance. I thought it was common knowledge they don’t pay out on sports cards and in the limited cases they do, it’s a huge ordeal.

Third party or “self insure” — save yourself money over the long run.

I'm confused - why would USPS offer insurance if they're not going to cover the losses if they lose the package?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Fred

I'm confused - why would USPS offer insurance if they're not going to cover the losses if they lose the package?

Insurance is a HUGE money maker, it wouldn't be a product if they lost money by paying out claims.

[hammertime]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I sell you a card and it doesn't get there, I am going to refund you even if you technically bore the risk of loss under the UCC or whatever set of rules, because it's the right thing to do. Sometimes being ethical requires going beyond the law.

Sure but when do you throw in the towel on it "not getting there"? That's not so cut and dry. I think it's important people try to see things from the perspective of the other side. A very simple task but by no means easy. The buyer assumes the card was stolen because he was told it was most likely stolen, so to him the situation is over and he's due a refund. Additionally he's probably anxious about having paid via f&f, and not getting a response from the seller only ratchets up that anxiety. The seller probably sees the USPS dealing with historic delays that they're just now beginning to unwind and assumes it could still be delivered. Both of these viewpoints are reasonable.

As others have stated, communication is key. If I were the seller in a situation like this is like to think I'd refund the buyer with the agreement that the payment will be re-sent if the item ever shows up.

[Tyruscobb]

This thread’s pro-buyer crowd is placing sellers in an untenable position. A seller has no protection and is always at a buyer’s pure mercy/honesty. The issue boils down to proof. Let’s walk it through.

What proof do we have that a seller has ever shipped a card? Well, there is a tracking number. This is hard evidence that the seller upheld his end. Absent hacking, there is no way for a seller to fake a tracking number that then shows up in the third-party carrier’s computer/tracking system. The seller providing a tracking number does not rely on his word, mercy, or honesty. This is objective evidence that the seller did what he said he would do.

What proof do we have that a buyer never receives a card? Checking the tracking number is a good start. However, we have all read stories on this site and others' where buyers have claimed that they never received an item despite the third-party carrier’s system showing that it delivered the item.

Is this possible? Sure - computer glitches occur, and sometimes thieves raid mailboxes and porches. Let’s use this scenario – one where the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item, but the buyer swears he never received it?

Under this scenario, the seller has absolute proof that he shipped the card. He has a tracking number that he provided the buyer two weeks earlier. Moreover, the tracking number shows the card went from the seller’s location to the buyer’s location. This is nice evidence. The seller also has evidence that the carrier delivered the card. The carrier’s tracking number shows it allegedly delivered it.

Now, what proof does the buyer have that he never received the card? His own word - That is it. So, despite all the seller’s objective evidence, the seller is now at the buyer’s pure mercy that he is telling the truth. Sellers have to provide evidence – i.e. shipping receipts, tracking numbers, etc. Buyers do not – we simply have to just take their word?

This is a ridiculous position to place sellers in, and exactly why most states have passed laws determining that the the risk of loss passes from the seller to the buyer once he has placed the item into the third-party carrier’s hands, paid for the shipping expense, and emailed the buyer all the details – carrier identity, tracking number, estimated delivery date, etc. This rule is easy and makes sense.

To the insurance table beating crowd – under my hypothetical scenario, do you think the seller has any chance of collecting the insurance proceeds? Good luck. The third-party carrier will say our system shows we delivered the item. So, under my scenario, buying insurance will do nothing, and the seller wasted his money. You might as well use it as toilet paper. How does a seller protect himself, even if he has insurance, if the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item?

I have a hard time placing a higher standard on a private seller than a private buyer. This isn’t a small buyer dealing with a large, sophisticated, international, multi-billion dollar box store seller, who has the financial means to take the hit and wants to always keep the customer happy; this is private citizen John Doe seller dealing with private citizen James Doe buyer.

As I said before, this thread’s pro-buyer crowd has become accustomed to the policies and rules that large companies and financial institutes implement to protect the buyer. These rules are not laws, and do not apply to private individuals entering into private contracts. These companies have every incentive to protect buyers – they want future business. The customer is always right to them. This is why they have adopted rules that are oftentimes contrary to the actual laws that govern contracts and shipping.

Parties are free to negotiate a deal's terms. if a buyer wants protection then demand and negotiate it during the deal. Just know that the seller is probably not going to internalize this protection's added expense and may increase the deal's total price. Not using these protections benefits both parties. It allows the seller to not provide a refund if the buyer claims the card was never delivered. On the flip side, it allows the buyer to purchase a card for a cheaper price. Again, seller's don't simply internalize the added protection's cost, they pass it along to the seller and adjust the card's final price.

So, what is a nice compromise for a collegial collecting community? I say the two parties split the loss – King Solomon wisdom.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Directly

So if that's the case why do they sell insurance at all?

Originally Posted by Fred

I'm confused - why would USPS offer insurance if they're not going to cover the losses if they lose the package?

It’s just not as cut and dry as you’d want or expect especially when dealing with something extremely valuable.

Fed Ex will let you insure a package for basically whatever amount you want but they only cover $1k in collectibles.

Buying third party insurance and following their requirements for shipping will save you significant amounts of money as well as give you a better piece of mind than trying to get a claim through USPS

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

This thread’s pro-buyer crowd is placing sellers in an untenable position. A seller has no protection and is always at a buyer’s pure mercy/honesty. The issue boils down to proof. Let’s walk it through.

What proof do we have that a seller has ever shipped a card? Well, there is a tracking number. This is hard evidence that the seller upheld his end. Absent hacking, there is no way for a seller to fake a tracking number that then shows up in the third-party carrier’s computer/tracking system. The buyer providing a tracking number does not rely on his word, mercy, or honesty. This is objective evidence that the seller did what he said he would do.

What proof do we have that a seller never receives a card? Checking the tracking number is a good start. However, we have all read stories on this site where individuals have claimed that they never received an item despite the third-party carrier’s system showing that it delivered the item.

Is this possible? Sure - computer glitches occur, and sometimes thieves raid mailboxes and porches. Let’s use this scenario – one where the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item, but the seller swears he never received it?

Under this scenario, the seller has absolute proof that he shipped the card. He has a tracking number that he provided the buyer two weeks earlier. Moreover, the tracking number shows the card went from the seller’s location to the buyer’s location. This is nice evidence. The seller also has evidence that the carrier delivered the card. The carrier’s tracking number shows it delivered it.

Now, what proof does the buyer have that he never received the card? His own word - That is it. So, despite all the seller’s objective evidence, the seller is now at the buyer’s pure mercy that he is telling the truth. Sellers have to provide evidence – i.e. shipping receipts, tracking numbers, etc. Buyers do not – we simply have to just take their word?

This is a ridiculous position to place someone in, and exactly why most states have passed laws determining that the the risk of loss passes from the seller to the buyer once he has placed the item into the third-party carrier’s hands, paid for the shipping expense, and emailed the buyer all the details – carrier identity, tracking number, estimated delivery date, etc. This is the rule makes sense.

To the insurance table beating crowd – under my hypothetical scenario, do you think this seller has any chance of collecting the insurance proceeds? Good luck. The third-party carrier will say our system shows we delivered the item. So, under my scenario, buying insurance did nothing, and the seller wasted his money. You might as well use it as toilet paper. How does a seller protect himself, even if he has insurance, if the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item?

I have a hard time placing a higher standard on the seller than the buyer. This isn’t a small buyer dealing with a large box store seller, who has the financial means to take the hit and wants to always keep the customer happy; this is private John Doe seller dealing with private James Doe buyer.

As I said before, this thread’s pro-buyer crowd has become accustomed to the policies and rules that large companies and financial institutes implement to protect the buyer. These rules are not laws, and do not apply to private individuals entering into private contracts. These companies have every incentive to protect buyers – they want future business. The customer is always right to them. This is why they have adopted rules that are oftentimes contrary to the actual laws that govern contracts and shipping.

So, what is a nice compromise for a collegial collecting community? I say the two parties split the loss – King Solomon wisdom.

Good points and very reasonable. Had the facts played out this way I'd be with you: if the USPS shows an item I sold as delivered any problem after that is a "you" problem not a "me" problem. As I understand the fact pattern, though, the item never reached the buyer: it got swallowed up in the postal black hole. Happens sometimes. I've had a few packages go down the rabbit hole myself. So what to do when neither side is at fault? Well, had they not agreed to cheat the devil by using PPFF, the answer is clear: the buyer gets a refund and the seller is left to whatever insurance (private or USPS) that he has to cover these situations. Since they made the bargain they made, however, they have to allocate the loss somehow, and as between the two of them it is a coin-toss under the circumstances.

[bobbyw8469]

I am just now getting to this and looking at the tracking. Yea, that one is pretty bad. Over a month with no update. To the OP....have you ran a trace on the package yet?? There is a Consumer Affairs number you can call with the Post Office......I would get the ball rolling with that.

[icurnmedic]

Originally Posted by Fred

I'm confused - why would USPS offer insurance if they're not going to cover the losses if they lose the package?

They will offer you insurance, but in a claim you MUST prove the value of the items. That is objective value , not a , " This is a 1/1 and the last like one that sold was a 1/100 and sold for $1 so this one must be worth $15" sort of thing. And just because you value a $7k package and they only allowed you $5k in insurance(online max) they only reimbursed you $4600 because that's all you could prove was in the package. Ask me how I know, SMH.

To the original thread, Im in the sellers camp, I think. To me being on both ends at one point or another makes this very difficult. In the end a buyer should always pay the measly 3% . I mean $7.50 would have solved this whole situation.

[Fred]

I had a package sent to me UPS RED (next day air) I needed that package to take on an international trip the next day.

The package was tracked, I waited for it and when I checked the status it said "delivered". Totally blew my mind. Someone had to sign for it. It was shipped to my home address and I was home ALL day waiting for that package.

After I saw the "delivered" status I called UPS and asked them where it was delivered and they indicated my home address. Obviously it was delivered elsewhere and they (UPS) had NO CLUE where it was.

I was so pissed off that I FEDEX'd an overnight letter to the UPS corporate office in Atlanta letting them know how incompetent they were. I was hoping a big Fedex truck pulled up and delivered it. After returning from my trip I received several calls from the UPS corporate office and regional offices.

This was shipped with the highest priority, signature required by a main delivery service and they totally screwed it up.

The point being - even though a delivery service package indicates "delivered", it doesn't mean it was to the correct address.

Not too long ago I was sent a package from an auction house (signature required) and the postal delivery person was trying to drop it off and run without my signature. I couldn't believe it. I happened to hear the postal carrier at my door. When I went to the door I saw the condition of the package. I about crapped my pants because there a good chance the contents could have been damaged. There was nothing wrong with the packaging by the auction house. What was a miracle is that the content was not damaged.

The point being - the idiot postal carrier that tried to drop a damaged package and run. What if I wasn't home or what if someone decided to steal the package from my front porch? It would have been shown as delivered, albeit no signature.

I asked the postal carrier why they didn't ring the door bell and wait for me to sign. They said covid protocols meant no signature had to be taken.

I was pissed and went to the post office the next day and spoke with a carrier supervisor and told them that type of service is why people are doubting the USPS. I used to try and support the USPS, but no more, not after that. The next day, I had all of my financial statements transferred to electronic delivery.

I've had several successful BST transactions (as a buyer) using USPS since then and no issues.

It might be easy to see which side of the fence I stand on in this case. I've always asked for the total price (including S/H) with the package "delivered" to my address. No ambiguity there.

I trust the people on the BST (try to make sure the seller isn't someone new on the board) and believe that we all have the bet of intentions and nobody's trying to screw anybody. Sometimes bad luck just seems to hit when it's a collectible. One more thing - communication is a good thing - even though there may be a debate about responsibility - always communicate.




https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1609275658

[drcy]

I had an important overnight UPSP delivery that took 13 days.

It is a legitimate issue that a seller and pro-sellers have that the seller does everything right shipping-wise, but the shipping is entirely in someone else's hands. This is why it isn't a clear cut matter of team-buyer versus team-seller. My view is it's the buyer's responsibility to have the package delivered (unless otherwise stipulated in the sales description). However, this USPS issue is why those in the minority here arguing that it's not automatically all on the seller have legitimate points. One may disagree with their perspective, but they aren't objectively wrong.

It's difficult to say something is black-and-white either a or c, when there's a b in the equation as well. One may disagree, but a legitimate argument can be that the seller is not responsible for "act of God."

In ethical (and moral) questions, there are no objective answers. It usually involves community shared subjective feelings.

It's also true that, as most people on Net54 are collectors/buyers, there tends to be a rote pro-buyer bias, and buyers often want things to all be in their forever. I remember a Net54 insisting an old auction house LOA guarantee should be forever and for the appreciated (not original sell) value, even though the document clearly said three years and he wasn't the original buyer. I said that life would be easy and we'd all be rich if we could rewrite contracts any way we wanted twenty years later and when we weren't even a party in the contract.

Likely some will say "Well, the buyer should self-insure" yet complain to high heaven when a seller adds a 25 cent self-insurance charge on a sale or even charges actual shipping and handling cost. Many or even most sellers lose money on shipping charge, so it's a curious argument that they should somehow derive self-insurance money out of that loss.

Maybe a new hobby norm is buyers should expect a small additional fee to all sales, as USPS insurance is no good and buyers expect sellers to take all the risk/responsibility. If buyers don't agree to that then maybe it shouldn't after all be on the seller when USPS fucks up.

[facingthelake1188]

Audra and I have had a friendly customer-postal worker relationship for quite a while. I sold on eBay for many years and dealt with her on a practically weekly basis. I complement her monthly new hair styles regularly and she goes out of her way to be helpful and straight forward with me as best as she can be given her employee status. Some things she may be comfortable telling me that would be inappropriate for her to tell other customers, ie: Brian. This definitely falls into that category. I have tried to explain this to thru pm not wanting to drag this out here but you disturbed by the tern stolen. Would you have felt better if I simply wrote lost/stolen? If it would make you feel better I would be happy to change the thread title to lost/stolen but I can’t and don’t see what difference or change of circumstances it would make. We are still here...same situation, same no package, same request for refund and same: I would simply resubmit payment if this package somehow shows up in weeks or months from now. How many weeks/months do you feel would be appropriate before you issue a refund as per forum (ie: Leon’s) policy on his forum? It’s now been almost 2 months, so what...3 months? 4 months?
On a side note, I am truly glad to see your recovery is going well.

[RL]

lots of different opinions for sure...

ftc says...

Two federal laws — the Mail, Internet or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule and the Fair Credit Billing Act — offer protections and procedures so you don’t have to pay for merchandise you ordered but never got. But first things first: Contact the seller to try to resolve the problem and get a refund.

[facingthelake1188]

Ok, I wasn’t going to post this but my wife and I just finished watching It’s a Wonderful Life, AGAIN and I cannot help but share this story of a fellow member’s most generous offer during this joyous holiday season. He may wish to remain anonymous and is clearly modest in his reference to what he did but here it is.
After reading about my plight, this member made the most generous offer to refund me out of his own pocket, clearly wishing to spread some holiday joy. And told me to simply pay him back if the card eventually shows up. I was beyond shocked. I politely declined explaining that at almost 60, retired and collecting a generous pension, money is not an issue. For those who already know him, his identity will not be a surprise. But for those who do not, please realize that you have amongst your membership, the most generous person I have ever had the privilege of conversing with...thanks again Casey!! I wish you a long and Wonderful Life ��

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Fred

The point being - even though a delivery service package indicates "delivered", it doesn't mean it was to the correct address.

Very true. Several different parties thought I was losing my mind, but last year the USPS marked a package "delivered" to my office, and when I went to the mailroom less than 10 minutes later, the employees there (who had safely tendered to me literally hundreds of packages in the previous 3 years....) had no clue what I was talking about. Someone there could have put on an disappearing act, sure - but if they did it would have been the first one, and I considered them totally trustworthy.

Long story short, eBay paid for my "delivered" card that was not, and did not ding the seller. But they made me fill out a police report to allege the package had been stolen since the USPS officially deemed it delivered. Not sure this was fair either, but eBay just wanted a police report number to give to their insurance company. After that, they were more than happy to pay me out under their "Buyer's Guarantee."

A rare occurrence, at least for me - but prices and fees be damned, this is why I still lean heavily on the eBay marketplace. I'm covered by both eBay and PayPal if the seller doesn't want to cooperate. And in the increasingly likely scenario that the United States Postal Service totally F's up...I'm covered by eBay there regardless as well.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Jim65

For those who use Venmo, they offer zero buyer protection.

Very true, I wouldn't have an issue using it with some of the long withstanding members on here though.

[Usc1]

Originally Posted by Jim65

It sounds like you've given the seller ample time to respond to your PMs. If he has been active since you sent the PMs, theres really no excuse for not responding. If it were me, I'd file for PayPal refund. If you paid by Goods and Services, you'll get a refund. If paid by Friends and Family, you are shit out of luck and just learned a valuable lesson.

Actually not completely true. I think numerous sellers think that F&f protect them. It may from paypal, but if the buyer pays via a credit card it could be charged back. It has happened to me when I sold an item on a different forum. The guy was a scammer.

[birdman42]

I came across this today. I used to live in Laurel, and am very familiar with this business.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...aurel-leather/

Bill

[Eric72]

Serious question:

If I sell a card here on Net54, and USPS tracking shows it as being delivered, have I satisfied my obligations as a seller on this board?

For the sake of keeping it simple, let's assume a PayPal Goods & Services payment. The buyer enters their own shipping address for those transactions.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Serious question:

If I sell a card here on Net54, and USPS tracking shows it as being delivered, have I satisfied my obligations as a seller on this board?

For the sake of keeping it simple, let's assume a PayPal Goods & Services payment. The buyer enters their own shipping address for those transactions.

I think it's a gray area. While not on this board, I did make multiple posts about a case i ran into early in the year. I had a card misdelivered to the wrong address by the USPS and the Card was stolen, and then relisted in another state. I went through a lengthy process with the post office, they eventually confirmed that they committed the error and the end result was me forwarding that email to ebay, and myself eventually receiving the refund, from ebay.

Something like this does not happen often however. I think there is only so much a seller can do to a certain extent. If the card is extremely valuable, I would think overnight it, or if possible an in person pickup would probably be the best bet in terms of the transaction being conducted. Obviously this is not always possible, but at the moment, with the way things are going with the postal service, I would say it's the best option.

I'm not sure if this really answers your question though. Just my thoughts on the situation.

[Kaneen]

3 weeks ago I made a purchase from a very trusted member of a Facebook collector's group. We had great communication, and I paid immediately via PayPal "Goods and Services." She mailed my package the next day via USPS Priorty Mail in Cincinnati, OH. The package was estimated to arrive at my PO Box address in Lexington KY (approx. 80 miles from the seller's shipping point) 3 days later, on a Saturday.
...On Friday, tracking showed that my package had arrived at the Lexington regional distribution center (nearly always says that the day before I get a package.)
...On Saturday, I checked the tracking before going to the PO to pick it up. Tracking says "Arrived at USPS Regional Facility, Des Moines IA." Well that's an interesting side trip.
...On Sunday, tracking shows it arrived back at the Lexington Distribution Center.
...On Monday morning, the package arrived at the Versailles KY post office (about 20 miles from my PO).
...Later on Monday afternoon, 1:26 PM, the package arrived at my Post Office. PO Box mail at my location is always placed in boxes by 11am.
...At 5:12 PM on Monday afternoon, the tracking now shows that my package was "Delivered, In/At Mailbox"
...Packages too large for the PO Box are placed in a lobby locker with a key left in the PO Box (I get them like this all the time, no issues).
...It is now 2 weeks later and I still have never seen the package, nor the locker key.

To recap...Seller clearly did her part; USPS screwed the pooch; who knows what actually happened to the package? (Probably mis-delivered and not returned by the improper recipient, but who knows); tracking shows "delivered"; ...and I never got the package.

Even if there was such a thing as a Net54 BST "policy" (which Leon says in this thread he has no intentions of instituting), or commonly accepted "board etiquette" (which is clearly not commonly accepted by everyone), there would still be cases where it is just not simple and clear cut.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Serious question:

If I sell a card here on Net54, and USPS tracking shows it as being delivered, have I satisfied my obligations as a seller on this board?

For the sake of keeping it simple, let's assume a PayPal Goods & Services payment. The buyer enters their own shipping address for those transactions.

I assume the general consensus would be the seller is off the hook.

As for PayPal, as long as seller shipped to the confirmed address and package shows as "delivered" or "available for pickup", they are clear. If the buyer pushed the issue with them, PayPal would probably reimburse the buyer themselves.

[philo98]

Originally Posted by Fred

I had a package sent to me UPS RED (next day air) I needed that package to take on an international trip the next day.

The package was tracked, I waited for it and when I checked the status it said "delivered". Totally blew my mind. Someone had to sign for it. It was shipped to my home address and I was home ALL day waiting for that package.

After I saw the "delivered" status I called UPS and asked them where it was delivered and they indicated my home address. Obviously it was delivered elsewhere and they (UPS) had NO CLUE where it was.

I was so pissed off that I FEDEX'd an overnight letter to the UPS corporate office in Atlanta letting them know how incompetent they were. I was hoping a big Fedex truck pulled up and delivered it. After returning from my trip I received several calls from the UPS corporate office and regional offices.

This was shipped with the highest priority, signature required by a main delivery service and they totally screwed it up.

The point being - even though a delivery service package indicates "delivered", it doesn't mean it was to the correct address.

I had this happen with Fedex last month. They said it was delivered at the house but never was, it was even signed for. I had to go to 5 different Fedex places to get an answer and finally track down the package. The security guard at the last location told me this is occuring often now. They have too many new drivers due to the increase in online ordering, plus being designated a supplier of vaccines. I would imagine these instances will continue. For that, I took out my own 3rd party insurance to cover these kind of things over the next year or so.

[bobbyw8469]

For that, I took out my own 3rd party insurance to cover these kind of things over the next year or so.

Can you say who you used and give a rough idea what it costs?

[mrmopar]

This comment is not meant to describe or imply anything similar with the transaction in question that started this thread, but I simply wanted to toss this out there in response to your post.

I was scanning a lot of the posts in this thread, so this may have been discussed somewhere along the way and I just missed it. If not though, here is one way that a seller could scam a buyer, but still provide tracking.

The tracking number is provided once you buy the label, at least with the Ebay/USPS system. Clearly the seller has purchased postage in which to send the package. That number is now recorded and trackable.

The package enters the system and we watch it move from A to B. Finally, it arrives, and is scanned in as delivered. The seller has now fully delivered on their end of the deal.

The buyer opens the package, and to help drive my point home, even notices that there seems to be no alteration of the package. It is sealed, no rips, tears, resealing, tape, etc.

Here is where my biggest fear of seller fraud comes into play. The buyer reaches into the package for their prize and the package is EMPTY! There is now proof of tracking and delivery, but the seller has simply sent an empty envelope. I do not believe the buyer has any recourse at all at this point and it is a matter of his word against that of the seller.

We hate to think of it, both as a buyer or a seller and thankfully it seems to happen infrequently enough, but there are people out there that are just looking to screw others, period.

I will now share the largest scam I was party to, since I started buying collectibles online. Thankfully the number of bad transactions is a tiny blip on the overall count, otherwise I probably would have quit online trading/buying a long time ago.

This was on the Beckett boards, I think. It's been a very long time, maybe 25 years, so the details may be a little hazy. I am obviously still sore about this after all these years, as i am sharing the story once more. A collector was looking for Brett Favre cards. He was offering one of those certified Topps Willie Mays autographs that were pack inserted. I should have seen this coming, but I allowed myself to trust the guy and ignore some red flags.

I don't recall any of the negotiations, but ultimately ended up sending him an appropriate amount of Favre cards equalling the BV of the Mays. Red Flag #1, this guy is willing to trade me a Mays auto for a stack of $2-5 Favre cards that add up to the Mays value! Who does that?

He gets my Favre cards and is happy with them. The Mays card arrives to me, as promised, except it is a regular commemorative reprint, not the hand signed one. The card was his 1954 Topps card. Those have facsimile autographs on them to begin with, but an authentic Topps autographed card would have had a 2nd signature, the facsimile and a real signature too. I let him know it was not the autographed version and he claims that he had no clue, that his local shop even confirmed it was the autographed version, red flag #2. Anyone with eyes and a clue would not have mistaken this card for a signed one.

He continues to communicate with me, claiming he'll make it right. In the end, I agree to some vintage FB star cards equal to the value of the Favres, red flag #3 similar to the first flag, who trades vintage star cards for common new inserts?

Needless to say, I never got anymore cards from him. Eventually he just stoped responding, after giving me excuse after excuse as to why he had not sent anything to me yet. Did I mention, he claimed to be in a wheelchair at some point after the trade was made. Perhaps that was true, but it just seemed a little too convenient for the scenario. I traded about $150 worth of Favre inserts for a $4 reprint card. Not the end of the world and glad i can call this my worst, especially at today's values. I'd still take the hit, but the gap in value would have shrunk considerably bewteen the late 90s and now.

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

This thread’s pro-buyer crowd is placing sellers in an untenable position. A seller has no protection and is always at a buyer’s pure mercy/honesty. The issue boils down to proof. Let’s walk it through.

What proof do we have that a seller has ever shipped a card? Well, there is a tracking number. This is hard evidence that the seller upheld his end. Absent hacking, there is no way for a seller to fake a tracking number that then shows up in the third-party carrier’s computer/tracking system. The seller providing a tracking number does not rely on his word, mercy, or honesty. This is objective evidence that the seller did what he said he would do.

What proof do we have that a buyer never receives a card? Checking the tracking number is a good start. However, we have all read stories on this site and others' where buyers have claimed that they never received an item despite the third-party carrier’s system showing that it delivered the item.

Is this possible? Sure - computer glitches occur, and sometimes thieves raid mailboxes and porches. Let’s use this scenario – one where the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item, but the buyer swears he never received it?

Under this scenario, the seller has absolute proof that he shipped the card. He has a tracking number that he provided the buyer two weeks earlier. Moreover, the tracking number shows the card went from the seller’s location to the buyer’s location. This is nice evidence. The seller also has evidence that the carrier delivered the card. The carrier’s tracking number shows it allegedly delivered it.

Now, what proof does the buyer have that he never received the card? His own word - That is it. So, despite all the seller’s objective evidence, the seller is now at the buyer’s pure mercy that he is telling the truth. Sellers have to provide evidence – i.e. shipping receipts, tracking numbers, etc. Buyers do not – we simply have to just take their word?

This is a ridiculous position to place sellers in, and exactly why most states have passed laws determining that the the risk of loss passes from the seller to the buyer once he has placed the item into the third-party carrier’s hands, paid for the shipping expense, and emailed the buyer all the details – carrier identity, tracking number, estimated delivery date, etc. This rule is easy and makes sense.

To the insurance table beating crowd – under my hypothetical scenario, do you think the seller has any chance of collecting the insurance proceeds? Good luck. The third-party carrier will say our system shows we delivered the item. So, under my scenario, buying insurance will do nothing, and the seller wasted his money. You might as well use it as toilet paper. How does a seller protect himself, even if he has insurance, if the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item?

I have a hard time placing a higher standard on a private seller than a private buyer. This isn’t a small buyer dealing with a large, sophisticated, international, multi-billion dollar box store seller, who has the financial means to take the hit and wants to always keep the customer happy; this is private citizen John Doe seller dealing with private citizen James Doe buyer.

As I said before, this thread’s pro-buyer crowd has become accustomed to the policies and rules that large companies and financial institutes implement to protect the buyer. These rules are not laws, and do not apply to private individuals entering into private contracts. These companies have every incentive to protect buyers – they want future business. The customer is always right to them. This is why they have adopted rules that are oftentimes contrary to the actual laws that govern contracts and shipping.

Parties are free to negotiate a deal's terms. if a buyer wants protection then demand and negotiate it during the deal. Just know that the seller is probably not going to internalize this protection's added expense and may increase the deal's total price. Not using these protections benefits both parties. It allows the seller to not provide a refund if the buyer claims the card was never delivered. On the flip side, it allows the buyer to purchase a card for a cheaper price. Again, seller's don't simply internalize the added protection's cost, they pass it along to the seller and adjust the card's final price.

So, what is a nice compromise for a collegial collecting community? I say the two parties split the loss – King Solomon wisdom.

[icurnmedic]

Originally Posted by mrmopar

The package enters the system and we watch it move from A to B. Finally, it arrives, and is scanned in as delivered. The seller has now fully delivered on their end of the deal.

The buyer opens the package, and to help drive my point home, even notices that there seems to be no alteration of the package. It is sealed, no rips, tears, resealing, tape, etc.

Here is where my biggest fear of seller fraud comes into play. The buyer reaches into the package for their prize and the package is EMPTY! There is now proof of tracking and delivery, but the seller has simply sent an empty envelope. I do not believe the buyer has any recourse at all at this point and it is a matter of his word against that of the now.

Not a new trick. Happened to me almost 15 years ago on an eBay purchase of a Gretzky rc. Before eBay was pro buyer. I can’t stand a thief!

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by philo98

I had this happen with Fedex last month. They said it was delivered at the house but never was, it was even signed for. I had to go to 5 different Fedex places to get an answer and finally track down the package. The security guard at the last location told me this is occuring often now. They have too many new drivers due to the increase in online ordering, plus being designated a supplier of vaccines. I would imagine these instances will continue. For that, I took out my own 3rd party insurance to cover these kind of things over the next year or so.

As a former Postmaster who tracked down many packages, I can tell you that if you think that a 'delivered" package was not delivered to your address, your Postmaster can tell you, within 2-3 minutes, where the package was actually delivered. There were many times when I looked at the GPS tracking, and I told my customer to look on their deck, or in the garage, or on their back porch, because the GPS shows, within a few inches, where the package and the carrier was when the "delivered" scan was made. Of course, there were many other times when I discovered that the package was delivered to 406 Oak St. rather than 406 Walnut St., or that the package was delivered to a neighbor.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by buymycards

There were many times when I looked at the GPS tracking, and I told my customer to look on their deck, or in the garage, or on their back porch, because the GPS shows, within a few inches, where the package and the carrier was when the "delivered" scan was made.

This is one of the reasons I quit having packages delivered to my office. With the one that was "delivered" last year, but nobody had it - the USPS claimed there was no GPS scan detectable because they were inside our loading dock and behind a bunch of concrete and thick walls. I haven't had to challenge it since, but would assume my local carrier does not have that problem out on the street next to my mailbox.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by buymycards

As a former Postmaster who tracked down many packages, I can tell you that if you think that a 'delivered" package was not delivered to your address, your Postmaster can tell you, within 2-3 minutes, where the package was actually delivered. There were many times when I looked at the GPS tracking, and I told my customer to look on their deck, or in the garage, or on their back porch, because the GPS shows, within a few inches, where the package and the carrier was when the "delivered" scan was made. Of course, there were many other times when I discovered that the package was delivered to 406 Oak St. rather than 406 Walnut St., or that the package was delivered to a neighbor.

Problem is so many Postal employees are too lazy to do this or they play dumb when you ask.

[sb1]

I have had only two different PO boxes in over 30 years. At each PO, nearly every clerk new me and each Postmaster also knew me due to my daily drop-offs and pickups. They went to great lengths whenever there was a problem, to find the item or get it to me.(like a 52 mantle that Fedex dropped off at the wrong house that got taken to the PO by the elderly recipient and the lady at the PO new to contact me).. Even now I sometimes go in and ask for some help on one stuck in the system and they get me the internal detailed report.

On the two occasions that I had postal insurance claims back in the old days, each was promptly paid without delay.

They hold my packages and even call me when I have several registered or other express items so that I can come get them.

It certainly doesn't hurt to develop and maintain a rapport with those handling your valuable items....

[facingthelake1188]

Hi Rick,
So the postal service can actually track packages via GPS? Is that on all packages or does a package have to be shipped priority or by another delivery method? What is the GPS attached to, the label with the scan bar code? Thx for this info.
Larry

Originally Posted by buymycards

As a former Postmaster who tracked down many packages, I can tell you that if you think that a 'delivered" package was not delivered to your address, your Postmaster can tell you, within 2-3 minutes, where the package was actually delivered. There were many times when I looked at the GPS tracking, and I told my customer to look on their deck, or in the garage, or on their back porch, because the GPS shows, within a few inches, where the package and the carrier was when the "delivered" scan was made. Of course, there were many other times when I discovered that the package was delivered to 406 Oak St. rather than 406 Walnut St., or that the package was delivered to a neighbor.

[Bigdaddy]

I would assume the GPS tracker is part of their hand held scanner. Wherever that scanner is when it scans the barcode and marks the package as 'delivered', then that is the GPS location.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I would assume the GPS tracker is part of their hand held scanner. Wherever that scanner is when it scans the barcode and marks the package as 'delivered', then that is the GPS location.

My old mail carrier would scan her packages at the truck before she put them in the bag. So its not foolproof.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by facingthelake1188

Hi Rick,
So the postal service can actually track packages via GPS? Is that on all packages or does a package have to be shipped priority or by another delivery method? What is the GPS attached to, the label with the scan bar code? Thx for this info.
Larry

All packages that have a bar-code can be tracked. First Class, Priority, Express, Registered, Media Mail, Parcel Post. The carrier's scanner scans the barcode on the shipping label, and immediately uploads the info into the tracking system. The information is available to the Postmaster within seconds of delivery and it only takes the Postmaster or Supervisor a couple of minutes to pull up a Google Map that shows exactly where the delivery scan was performed. This info isn't available to most clerks and carriers - just management employees.

The problem is that some carriers don't want to carry their scanner around the route, so they scan several packages while they are inside their vehicle, which is against the rules and doesn't provide useful tracking data. I always spot checked the scans my carriers were making to make sure they were not making the delivery scans until they were actually putting the package in the mailbox. If a customer had a problem, and the carrier didn't perform the scan properly, I would have the customer come to the Post Office so the carrier could explain why he didn't do his job properly.

When used properly, the info on Google Maps will show, within a few inches, exactly where the delivery scan was performed.

As far as what James said about some employees being too lazy to provide this information, he is correct. When I was still working, several times a day I would receive an email or a phone call from neighboring Post Offices asking me to look up the GPS information for them. I didn't mind because I loved trying to track packages for customers.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by buymycards

The problem is that some carriers don't want to carry their scanner around the route, so they scan several packages while they are inside their vehicle, which is against the rules and doesn't provide useful tracking data.

On several occasions, I've received notifications that USPS deliveries were made to me, often very late in the day, when that for sure wasn't the case, but with the items actually being delivered the next day. I assume carriers are just scanning multiple items they plan on delivering but don't want to actually spend the time scanning upon each delivery. Glad the items have all arrived, so far, in such cases but of course, until I do get them, I worry that they've been mis-delivered or stolen. Very frustrating.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by icollectDCsports

On several occasions, I've received notifications that USPS deliveries were made to me, often very late in the day, when that for sure wasn't the case, but with the items actually being delivered the next day. I assume carriers are just scanning multiple items they plan on delivering but don't want to actually spend the time scanning upon each delivery. Glad the items have all arrived, so far, in such cases but of course, until I do get them, I worry that they've been mis-delivered or stolen. Very frustrating.

Seconded - I’ve had the exact same experience, also multiple times (in the last six weeks). The false “delivered” scans are always recorded as being about 5 minutes before the official close of the day they had been scanned as out for delivery, but I get the alerts at around 4 am, so I assume it has something to do with gaming the scanning system to avoid a negative mark on a delivery record or something.

[bobbyw8469]

Your tracking number just got a hit....you have movement!!!!!!

[hammertime]

Patience is a virtue.

(one I often don't possess myself, but nonetheless)

[bobbyw8469]

Due to be delivered today!!! Did the seller already refund??? Glad to see your item has been relocated.

[parkplace33]

I am glad this story will (hopefully) have a good ending.

[facingthelake1188]

Update... I awoke today to great news...the package is “out for delivery”. The seller never did refund my payment. Thanks to all for your comments and input. Wishing everyone a happy and healthy New Year!

[wondo]

Patience is a virtue.

[sando69]

yes, and so are tolerance, understanding and forgiveness.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Not so stolen after all...

[OldOriole]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Not so stolen after all...

Correct.

I wonder if the OP will go back to the branch manager and ask the "lovely woman" why she told him the were "clearly stolen".

Holidays + Pandemic = Have a little more patience than normal.

[Snapolit1]

I had two panicked eBay buyers in last two weeks, both sure their cards had been stolen because tracking wasn't updated for a while and delivery was crawling. They were 100% sure of theft. I apparently was the first person to alert them to the chaos in USPS. Still they were sure it was theft. It wasn't; both showed up late. The real kicker was one of them gave me a neutral rating on eBay after I politely walked him off the ledge of his building numerous times. Even sent him newspapers articles about the troubles in PA where he lived. Comment was something "It wasn't the sellers fault but it took me 16 days to get this delivered." Whatever. Not losing sleep over the neutral but that's what we used to call in the old days "a real dick move."

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I had two panicked eBay buyers in last two weeks, both sure their cards had been stolen because tracking wasn't updated for a while and delivery was crawling. They were 100% sure of theft. I apparently was the first person to alert them to the chaos in USPS. Still they were sure it was theft. It wasn't; both showed up late. The real kicker was one of them gave me a neutral rating on eBay after I politely walked him off the ledge of his building numerous times. Even sent him newspapers articles about the troubles in PA where he lived. Comment was something "It wasn't the sellers fault but it took me 16 days to get this delivered." Whatever. Not losing sleep over the neutral but that's what we used to call in the old days "a real dick move"

I just got a card today I bought from the Net54 BST board. It was shipped on Nov.30th. I forgot about it until it showed up. Thankfully the seller was honest and shipped it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I had someone file a paypal dispute and then, even after we talked (he had the tracking info) as soon as he could he escalated it to a claim. Only one of those so far out of the hundreds of end of year packages we sent, but still frustrating.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I had someone file a paypal dispute and then, even after we talked (he had the tracking info) as soon as he could he escalated it to a claim. Only one of those so far out of the hundreds of end of year packages we sent, but still frustrating.

And is there package still lost or did it turn up?? I bet that is a nightmare to have to go through.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

It was delivered and he lost the claim. In my case it's even worse because the consignor has already been paid, so now I would be returning money that I don't even have anymore!

[bigfish]

Originally Posted by facingthelake1188

Update... I awoke today to great news...the package is “out for delivery”. The seller never did refund my payment. Thanks to all for your comments and input. Wishing everyone a happy and healthy New Year!

When you get you’re package I expect you to not apologize to the sender for this fairly dramatic presentation.

I expect you to bash him for not responding to you fast enough or at all.... during a global pandemic with the USPS short staffed experiencing extra volume during the holidays.