Proper action for a stolen package from a Buy/Sell/Trade transaction
 

I am posting this at the suggestion of a fellow member with whom I have had the pleasure of several mutually beneficial trades/sales.
I would appreciate the input of the many veteran members on this forum as to the proper action that should be taken in this regrettably unfortunate situation. On Nov. 19, I purchased a 1916 Altoona Tribune Ray Caldwell for $225 + shipping from a long standing member with over 4000+ posts. Being a new member, I was understandable hesitant to enter into transactions paid via PayPal F/F with little recourse if things went bad but I saw that so many of you post all your successful transactions that I felt comfortable dealing within such a large community of fellow collectors.
Postal tracking indicated that my package status was “delivery delayed” while showing “delivered to” my local post office “on Nov. 23. Knowing that mail this time of year can be slow, I waited until after Thanksgiving before going to the post office to check on the delay. I spoke with the branch manager, a lovely woman who I have interacted with for many years. After going to her office, she came back and showed me an email she had already sent out to the postal inspector listing about ten tracked items within the same “satchel” (her word), including mine, that were supposed to have been delivered to the branch on Nov. 23, but were not on the truck. [She explained that even though tracking shows the package as delivered to the branch, in actuality that scan is done at the regional hub when the satchel is set for inclusion of the next truck delivery to the local branches in my area. They do not actually scan the packages when they arrive at the local post office. Strange but true] She apologized profusely knowing that these packages were clearly stolen by a crooked postal employee. A bunch of packages do not just go missing without help.
So of course I contact the member and relayed news of this mess and asked that he file a claim with his branch for the insured value (I do not know if he ever insured the package but most now come with a minimum $50 of insurance standard.) NO RESPONSE. I waited another week hoping the postal inspector might get lucky and again emailed the member requesting a refund. NO RESPONSE. Not wanting to out this person on the forum immediately because I truly believe the card was shipped as promised, and me being a fairly new member, I asked a veteran member with whom I have had several successful transactions, both trades and sales (cards and cash exchanged both ways) for his opinion on the appropriate resolution in such a situation. He responded...
“That's a real bummer about your card being stolen. That really sucks. Did the seller confirm it had been insured?*
Ultimately it's the seller's responsibility to get the card delivered to you, and if it fails to get there he should issue you a refund. My guess would be he's holding out hope that the package is found or delayed considering the issues with the post office of late?... but in the end it's on him to get you the card and if it doesn't get there he needs to issue you a refund. Is this a board member regular?”
You will not be roasted for bringing this up, but you can consider posting about it and not outing the board member but asking opinions on what to do. You will get a lot of people saying you deserve a refund... Name the card, what you paid and detail it all. But don't name the seller... yet.”

Sorry for the long story, but I wanted to tell it as accurately and completely as possible. Please give me your opinions, shouldn’t it be the sellers responsibility? Would it be wrong to warn others about the actions of this member?

Can you post the tracking number, or screenshots of what the tracking shows?

You know what's gonna suck - after a bunch of opinions are rendered and sides are taken, the package will show up.

I really hope it shows up soon.

All of my transactions through the BST have all been completed without issue. I count myself fortunate. Lots of wonderful people on this board.

Refund
 

If nothing was mentioned, imo, it is the seller's responsibility to get the card/item to the buyer. It is the buyer's responsibility to pay for it. If the card doesn't get there it is on the seller for a refund. That is if nothing is agreed to beforehand concerning shipping.

I believe all 1st class now comes with tracking and $50 insurance. Again, on the seller to go get it if he wants it.

Here is a 1949 Vis Ed card of Doby....because threads need cards.

https://luckeycards.com/phuncviseddoby1949.jpg

I think your actions so far have been appropriate and reasonable. I'm also in the camp that it is the seller's responsibility to get the card delivered, unless otherwise stipulated. Since you indicate you have been pretty friendly with your local PO, have you tried following up with her or the postmaster/postal inspector to see if they have anymore info? Has the board member been active lately? If so, I would send him another message with a set deadline to make things right, or at least give you a good update/plan on how to address, before outing him. If the deadline passes without any communication, I would say to out him. Just because you are new to the board is not a reason for them to ignore communicating with you about the situation and it is not a reason you should be concerned about outing him. We were all new at some point. That said, the USPS right now is really messed up so I could see him wanting to hold off refunding for now, but he should still at least be communicating.

This sucks
 

Is the desired outcome of you’re post to get the seller to respond on the main forum?

Did you purchase insurance or ask about paying for insurance?

I have done over 100 buys from this seller. He’s not the type to not send the card.

I think the card could still show up. The postal service is a mess.

No great solution. I hope it all works out.

Merry Christmas

Based on recent packages I have mailed for cards I have sold, I think only priority mail comes with the $50 insurance. First class can include tracking but any insurance is extra. Given how things have been with USPS lately, I have been buying insurance on everything I have shipped because I would assume the buyer would expect a refund if the cards never showed up. Just like any other purchase from any other seller (business, eBay, private, etc), if the item is never received, the buyer would expect their money back.

This is correct.

Also, it’s always on the seller to make sure the item is delivered. Sucks that it was “stolen” if that was what actually happened but it’s still the sellers responsibility.

Not really much to discuss here. Cut and dry.

This part of the advice wasn't the best. Combine that info w/ the date you mentioned, and it takes just a few seconds to figure out the seller

It is the seller's responsibility to deliver the package, it is up to the seller whether to buy insurance.

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I had that happen recently with an eBay seller, he mailed the package and it got lost in usps hell. I emailed him after about 3 weeks, he was frustrated and concerned, went to his post office, I went to mine both of us trying to track the package.

Our email exchange was fun, we talked about him being at Woodstock in 69 and my girlfriends family connection to that event, my love of the Giants, and his life as a retired guy selling cards. I made a new friend, as they say.

I could tell he was distraught over the missing item, I could also tell that it would have been hard for him to issue an entire refund, this was his biggest card that I had bought, a 4-in-1 at $340 I think. I told him we'll just wait it out, use our power of positive energy to will that card showing up at my office and not to worry about. He asked what we should do in the event it never shows up. I suggested he could refund me what he would have made on the card as a solution so we both shouldered a little of the pain instead of only one of us. And then I forgot about it.

Two weeks later the card showed up.

I don't have a suggestion on what you guys should do but I wish you both well in coming up with a fair solution.

It sounds like you've given the seller ample time to respond to your PMs. If he has been active since you sent the PMs, theres really no excuse for not responding. If it were me, I'd file for PayPal refund. If you paid by Goods and Services, you'll get a refund. If paid by Friends and Family, you are shit out of luck and just learned a valuable lesson.

Jim, most of the people selling on the BST request F/F paypal because there are no fees associated with the transaction. Just curious, what does paypal charge for the sales/service selection? What does it cover? Who pays for the fee associated with sales/service transaction?

Not his fault of course, but it's on the seller. So it goes.

The fees are roughly 3%. I never ever pay by Friends and Family, I always pay the extra fees myself and pay by Goods and Services, no matter who the seller is. Its about protecting yourself. When you pay by Friends and Family, you are giving up any Buyer Protections that PayPal offers.

OP - can you post a picture of what the tracking says?

I've had a couple items go "missing" for about 3 weeks in the past month plus, if you get them to run a "trace" on the package at both your post office and at it's last known scan location, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it all of a sudden shakes loose in the system and turns up.

Mail
 

Two words...registered / insured.

Its not his fault but ignoring the buyer while he has the buyers money is his fault.

Agreed. I never ship packages without insurance especially now with service being so inconsistent. Someone was correct above in that only priority mail comes with 50.00 insurance included. Anything else is on the seller and buyer to figure out. IMO if the seller offered insurance and it is refused then it's not on the seller. Doesn't sound like the case here though.

This board’s proper etiquette is to refund the buyer. However, proper etiquette and whether the seller must legally refund the buyer are potentially two different things. Although people often forget, they are entering into binding and enforceable contracts when they b/s/t. Words and phrases have meaning and legal significance. Did the contract’s terms state shipped or delivered?

In some states, if the contract just indicates shipped, the risk transfers from the seller to the buyer as soon as the third-party carrier takes possession. Thus, the buyer bears the loss if the third-party carrier losses/damages the item during shipping.

This is why it’s always good practice to specify “delivered.” This denotes that the seller bears the risk until the item is delivered to the buyer. Thus, the seller is responsible for a lost/damaged item.

So, this issue is not legally cut and dry. We need more information, such as the actual contract’s language, the terms and conditions, the parties’ jurisdiction(s), etc. However, the etiquette is cut and dry.

USPS Insurance
 

FYI--Good luck on filing a USPS insurance claim. I filed a claim for $650.00 10/26/20 for a lost card, denied, Filed first appeal, under review--sadly a suggestion to send overnight or registered mail is good advise right now.

As a seller, I've found it helpful to use the USPS website when packages go missing. Speaking with a postal employee is good. If you've developed a rapport with the Postmaster, that's a great person to ask for help. However, also consider this site:

https://www.usps.com/help/missing-mail.htm

A couple items I've mailed this year got "stuck" at a USPS facility for more than a week. When I used the website, the package got "knocked loose" within a day or two and arrived safely at its destination shortly thereafter.

Something to keep in mind - in my case, it's possible that having a USPS account online helped.

Posting this as a "general help" topic for sellers here. With regard to the OP, the missing satchel makes this case more complex than what I've dealt with.

The mail is so ridiculously slow right now but the OP said his branch manager thinks the package was stolen and a month later, its still lost.

The most troubling thing is this seller is choosing to ignore a buyer who has a rightful problem, especially when the seller has a history of this. Sellers should not have the right to ignore buyers when they have the buyers money in their pocket.

This site is great but really needs some kind of feedback system to protect members. If this buyer had read about the sellers previous problem, he could have chosen to pay for PayPal buyer protection.

The seller has an obligation to get the card to the buyer. However, there’s no rule on the BST forum that states the item must be insured. I don’t think the seller owes you the money, but the right thing to do would be For him/her to refund you.

One of the reasons people use FF here is because it is a trusting group.

Same seller, same situation
 

Let me first say thank you all very much for taking the time to read my long post and give me your honest feedback. I plan to respond to each of your questions/comments as time allows but let me quickly post a quick update. One veteran member was kind enough to send me this link from this past year detailing the same situation involving the same member. Since the member outs himself, I will just leave it up to whoever is interested to read and discover who this seller was. And maybe he will finally decide to reply to me...

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...t=lost+package

And Merry Christmas to you all. I am extremely grateful to have found this site with so many like minded collectors. Being a pre-war Yankees collector, I am so amazed by all the rare cards that are posted here. I look forward to posting some of my own personal favorites from my collection in the future.

If the buyer paid, no shipping was mentioned and card not received, then the seller owes the buyer a refund. On at least this forum it is not debatable.

Maybe. Did the contract’s terms and conditions state shipped or delivered? These are two different things. If just shipped, the seller satisfied his “obligation” once he paid for shipping and the third-party shipper took possession.

If the contract’s terms stated delivered, the seller bears the risk of loss until the item is delivered. Thus, his obligation doesn’t end until the third-party carrier delivers the item.

The same rules that auction websites and credit card companies may have does not always apply across the board to transactions between two individuals with a non-secured or guaranteed payment method. People, however, forget this aspect.

The etiquette is to refund and move on.

I politely disagree on shipped vs delivered. To me they mean the same thing. I don't play the semantics games.

.

I’m just trying to help educate and explain how some states’ laws address this exact issue. It’s not semantics. There is a legal difference between a shipping contract and a delivery one.

Your the site’s ultimate arbiter. So, if you say the site’s rule is for the seller to reimburse the buyer then that is the rule. I’ve always personally followed this rule selling on here anyways (although thankfully all my items arrived), because it’s not worth the hassle and reputation damage fighting a buyer.

What happens when the item turns up after a refund has been issued?? Is there a rule for that scenario as well?

There is no easy way with things like this. And I believe both parties have done the right things.

The risk could have been remedied by paying the 3%. I believe if the buyer wanted insurance it should have been paid for it. The seller mailed it then his/her job is done. I’ve always operated under that assumption when buying PayPal f/f. If I wanted insurance I’d add the fee and feel good knowing it’s covered.

I sure hope the card is found for both parties sake.


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I am curious to know the tracking number......can the OP share that?

Why when you are not involved in any way would you want the tracking#? I have never understood why someone would ask this.

He's asking ours opinions/advice, we should be able to see all the evidence to be able to make a fully informed opinion.

He should give the tracking info, or screenshots showing the dates and info.

Granted more than likely this is an open and shut case, and the seller will need to refund, but still never hurts to see all the info/facts and hear from both sides.

it is the sellers responsibility to get the package shipped/delivered,
no delivery the seller needs to refund.

insurance is to protect the seller, not the buyer.

if you do get refunded and the card shows up, repay for the card.

Obviously the buyer then must pay.

That actually happened to me after I had received a refund through ebay. The card showed up after three months lol.

I sold a nice Nolan Ryan card on eBay for $15 to someone and apparently forgot to seal the media envelope when I shipped it. The buyer got the empty package with the removable tape still on and no card :confused:.

I refunded him and I think we were mainly both upset that a really cool card had been lost.

Different situation because it was clearly my fault and not a huge deal because the amount was small.

But I'm just selling stuff from my PC, not trying to make money when I sell. I imagine that for those on the forum that are trying to make extra money at this the loss of funds, time, energy etc. would be a drag.

Best of luck to you both in getting this resolved.

Because I have shipped so many packages, I would consider myself an "expert" on whether the package was truly indeed "lost" or if he had a chance still to show up. Like someone else said, if he is solitciting advice, then he shouldn't have a probably sharing a tracking number....not like I can do anything bad with it....geez.......

Only the tracking number for my sister's Christmas present has been deleted from this response I sent earlier today to Larry (12/.26/2020):

Larry,

I responded to your December 12 e-mail. I just did a search and found your December 21 e-mail which I wlll read shortly. Why shortly? I had brain surgery at UPMC Presbyterian on Wednesday December 2 for removal of 3 cm of the left side of my brain by Dr. Gregoris Zenonos. On Monday of this week, I went to UPMC Shadyside for fitting of a mask for radiation of the rest of the growth. I will also have chemotherapy over a same six week timeframe starting in January 2021. According to Dr. Zenonos, the surgery removed 91-95% on Wednesday December 2. The diagnosis is Anapolastic Astro Cytoma. Originally diagnosed this past Monday December 21 at a grade 3. The following day, Dr. Megan Mantica on a video call with my brother and myself lowered the diagnosis to grade 2. That was Tuesday December 22.

Now, given the problems with the post offices across the country, the plan was and is on my end to act on the matter today. Why? Covid and its resulting lack of USPS employees. This to give you another example. I ordered a Christmas present for my sister-in-law Tammy on November 30 (Order number -------) through Luca+Danni.

Also, please note I have mentioned my diagnosis to Al Crisafulli on Wednesday December 23 as well as to Helen Brose of Heritage Auctions on December 23.

Thank you,

Brian Van Horn

Wishing you a speedy recovery Brian. Op, what kind of card was it. If I have it I’ll send you mine. Let’s keep things in perspective.

Posting activity
 

Brian,
I can appreciate you not being able to address my emails and concerns due to your health issues if it were not for the fact that a search of your posting activity on the forum indicates that you were actively posting on the following dates:
Nov. 26, 27, 29, Dec. 6, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 (2x), 21 (4x). It is now Dec. 26 and it is only today, after bringing this issue to the attention of fellow members, that you have first responded to my inquiry and began to address my concerns.
I hope you have had a chance to read the many responses I have received to my thread. Overwhelmingly, members who offered their opinion confirmed that proper etiquette is that the seller is responsible for issuing a refund for a lost/stolen package. I continue hoping you will abide by forum etiquette and refund my purchase price. Thank you and I truly do wish you well and good health.
Best wishes for a happy and healthy New Year!
Larry

Since you have not showed the tracking, for whatever reason, just curious do you have a PO Box, and does it show Delivered?

Tracking number
 

Thank you all for your opinions and comments. Here is the tracking number for anyone interested. I have no issue sharing it. I was just having a problem posting a photo from my iPad. It seems I can only do that from my Mac.

9500115895080326668817

I do wish to reiterate one point I mention in my original post...

Postal tracking indicated that my package status was “delivery delayed” while showing “delivered to” my local post office “on Nov. 23. Knowing that mail this time of year can be slow, I waited until after Thanksgiving before going to the post office to check on the delay. I spoke with the branch manager, a lovely woman who I have interacted with for many years. After going to her office, she came back and showed me an email she had already sent out to the postal inspector listing about ten tracked items within the same “satchel” (her word), including mine, that were supposed to have been delivered to the branch on Nov. 23, but were not on the truck. [She explained that even though tracking shows the package as delivered to the branch, in actuality that scan is done at the regional hub when the satchel is set for inclusion of the next truck delivery to the local branches in my area. They do not actually scan the packages when they arrive at the local post office. Strange but true] She apologized profusely knowing that these packages were clearly stolen by a crooked postal employee. A bunch of packages do not just go missing without help.

Repayment would be made
 

Obviously, (or maybe not) I would reissue payment. As I told the seller in a recent pm:

“If it arrives, even if several months from now, I would certainly contact you and resubmit payment. At my age, almost 60, retired and collecting a pension, money is not an issue. Honesty and integrity mean too much to me to ever compromise myself over cash. I hope to continue being a productive member of the collecting community for years to come. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting and completing successful transactions with a bunch of members in my short time here. Please read the overwhelming opinions of members regarding the proper etiquette re: seller responsibilities. Then ask yourself, wouldn’t you expect the same if the situation were reversed? Thanks for listening and happy holidays!”

No brainer at this point.

Seller must issue Refund ASAP. Today.

Seller need to go to the PO and make their claim.

Case closed.

I completely disagree with the seller must issue a refund today . Usps is beyond messed up . I had 2 packages from a seller in Kentucky shipped to me on nov 28. No scans at all , then they showed up last week. The package will show . Have patience . If I was the seller , I would not isssue a refund at this point but I would stay in contact with buyer .
Matt

Probably not the best phrase to use in this particular case.

If it was stolen , I'd be checking ebay etc to see if the card you bought shows up there.

Dude, the guy just had brain surgery. It's hardly appropriate to be cross-examining him about his posting activity. Maybe he spent a little time here as a diversion from the physical and emotional stress he was under, and your refund wasn't his highest priority. Let it go for now. Show some grace.

I thought the same. The gent had brain surgery on Wednesday December 2 and was posting cards for sale by Sunday December 6. That’s not a bad recovery time. I hope all is well.


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