PWCC Huigens Now Has a Criminal Defense Attorney

[topcat61]

Oh, PWCC has a vault? Didn't Al Capone have a vault too? Where's Geraldo Rivera?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by topcat61

Oh, PWCC has a vault? Didn't Al Capone have a vault too? Where's Geraldo Rivera?

there may be cans of soda in it

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

They are looking!

Apparently when applying for a job at PSA, you don't need experience as a forensic document analyst or in handwriting to get this job? I would think it would be necessary, no?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by topcat61

Apparently when applying for a job at PSA, you don't need experience as a forensic document analyst or in handwriting to get this job? I would think it would be necessary, no?

How would that apply to grading cards?

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ebay is aware of what's going on. I think it's highly unlikely they take any action.

Quite unfortunate. Again, when I was all new to this and just started collecting, specifically pre-war cards as a history nerd, I felt like something was going on. I reported the same names via eBay at least 5-7 years ago. Something seemed off then and it still does now. eBay allowed PWCC and their counterparts to get to where they are today despite those of us reporting them for years saying WTF?

Where do we go from here Peter? eBay allowed this nonsense to grow.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

So, the elite group of folks "the gang of 5" who ran up and bought each other cards through PWCC won't be using them in the future, I imagine. Not too mention, all of Moser altered card work won't be fenced/sold through PWCC like in years past. Plus, no more special flip/bump grading from PSA to PWCC will happen now. Its safe to say, its time for a new business plan!

Two years or less! Pwcc will be out of business and using their personal cards for lawyer payments is my prediction.

Who is in "the gang of 5?"


Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[CMIZ5290]

I have been saying these for years....EBAY doesn't give a shit, period.....

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by topcat61

Apparently when applying for a job at PSA, you don't need experience as a forensic document analyst or in handwriting to get this job? I would think it would be necessary, no?

No.

[swarmee]

FWIW, it was reported on Blowout that Gary Moser's ebay account, whitman111 which became ricky-leo, is now "No Longer A Registered User"

Doesn't mean he's off eBay, but maybe they do care about it a little with the FBI involvement. I wonder if the FBI was tipped off about the odd sales history outages that eBay seemed to cause?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

FWIW, it was reported on Blowout that Gary Moser's ebay account, whitman111 which became ricky-leo, is now "No Longer A Registered User"

Doesn't mean he's off eBay, but maybe they do care about it a little with the FBI involvement. I wonder if the FBI was tipped off about the odd sales history outages that eBay seemed to cause?

Maybe he took it down himself and has a brand new one.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by Neal

Who is in "the gang of 5?"


Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I know who one of them is, and he usually has a very focused 2 cases of cards at The National that are sort of spaced out like an Apple Store. This year he had like 7 cases fully filled and an entire set break stacked in one of them, and they were more filled like a Target store rather than an Apple Store, and I heard someone walking him down on prices which he never used to do.

Prepare to have the PWCC product sprayed into the wild.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hmmmm.... if it's who I think you may be describing, wasn't he telling us back in 2016 just to have fun?

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hmmmm.... if it's who I think you may be describing, wasn't he telling us back in 2016 just to have fun?

Groovy, Peter (hope your brothers and sisters are well). I can hear the Mr. Saying “Now boys......”

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I have been saying these for years....EBAY doesn't give a shit, period.....

I've been saying that as well for at least 4 years. One of the worst companies of all time. They promote fraud at the highest level and then kick you to the Philippines. Amazing idea FU-Bay had, but not policing their site has made them complicit to all the crimes committed through them.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

Groovy, Peter (hope your brothers and sisters are well). I can hear the Mr. Saying “Now boys......”

Brady ... bunch?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by steve B

How would that apply to grading cards?

Here's why I would trust a Forensic Document Examiner over a grader any day of the week -

"Forensic document examiners, also often referred to as questioned document examiners, are forensic scientists who are responsible for using a number of scientific processes and methods for examining documents—whether written, typed, or printed—related to a crime scene investigation.

Forensic document examiners should not to be confused with graphologists, who are handwriting analysis practitioners that claim to be able to discern personality characteristics based on handwriting features. Graphology is largely viewed as a pseudoscience in the eyes of the scientific community.

Forensic document examiners, on the other hand, are skilled forensics scientists with a demonstrated expertise in applied questioned document examination. They are handwriting experts, as well as experts in other areas of document examination, including machine printing processes; and obliterated, indented and erased entries.

The most common type of questioned document examination involves identifying the authorship of a written letter. It is also common for forensic document examiners to determine if an item originated from the same source as a known item, determine when a document was produced, and decipher information on a document that has been erased, hidden, or obscured.

Forensic document examiners may perform the following:

Examine documents for signs that they have been forged or altered
Compare signatures and handwriting through handwriting analysis to determine the authorship of documents
Examine typed documents and link them to specific machines or computers (printing process examinations)
Decipher the contents of documents that have been partially destroyed or altered
Compare fractured or cut-edge comparisons on a variety of surfaces, including paper and tape
Examine incidents of indented writing
Perform alternate light source examinations to determine ink discrimination, alterations, and/or enhancements
Forensic document examiners commonly work in local, state or federal crime labs. A number of these professionals work through private investigative companies, although this type of work is generally geared toward civil cases. Forensic document examiners are also often called to testify as experts in criminal cases".*

*crimesceneinvestigatoredu.org

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by topcat61

Here's why I would trust a Forensic Document Examiner over a grader any day of the week -

"Forensic document examiners, also often referred to as questioned document examiners, are forensic scientists who are responsible for using a number of scientific processes and methods for examining documents—whether written, typed, or printed—related to a crime scene investigation.

Forensic document examiners should not to be confused with graphologists, who are handwriting analysis practitioners that claim to be able to discern personality characteristics based on handwriting features. Graphology is largely viewed as a pseudoscience in the eyes of the scientific community.

Forensic document examiners, on the other hand, are skilled forensics scientists with a demonstrated expertise in applied questioned document examination. They are handwriting experts, as well as experts in other areas of document examination, including machine printing processes; and obliterated, indented and erased entries.

The most common type of questioned document examination involves identifying the authorship of a written letter. It is also common for forensic document examiners to determine if an item originated from the same source as a known item, determine when a document was produced, and decipher information on a document that has been erased, hidden, or obscured.

Forensic document examiners may perform the following:

Examine documents for signs that they have been forged or altered
Compare signatures and handwriting through handwriting analysis to determine the authorship of documents
Examine typed documents and link them to specific machines or computers (printing process examinations)
Decipher the contents of documents that have been partially destroyed or altered
Compare fractured or cut-edge comparisons on a variety of surfaces, including paper and tape
Examine incidents of indented writing
Perform alternate light source examinations to determine ink discrimination, alterations, and/or enhancements
Forensic document examiners commonly work in local, state or federal crime labs. A number of these professionals work through private investigative companies, although this type of work is generally geared toward civil cases. Forensic document examiners are also often called to testify as experts in criminal cases".*

*crimesceneinvestigatoredu.org

I absolutely agree. I couldn't care less about what number is assigned to a card. I leave the aesthetic opinions up to my own eyes. I don't need a third party for that. I want a grading company to confirm that a card is authentic and unaltered. I guess we're all waiting for a reliable company to provide that service.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I absolutely agree. I couldn't care less about what number is assigned to a card. I leave the aesthetic opinions up to my own eyes. I don't need a third party for that. I want a grading company to confirm that a card is authentic and unaltered. I guess we're all waiting for a reliable company to provide that service.

That was PSA's initial advertising pitch as I recall -- an antidote to card doctors. Thus the "A" in PSA. The irony is rich.

[frankbmd]

PWCC has their vaunted vault (please use "vaunted vault" going forward when referring to the "vault") at the National consisting of high grade cards in modest display cases on several easels that are not secured to the floor. They do have a uniformed guard however. Once the show closes each evening the vault is moved to an undisclosed location with the uniformed guard. At the conclusion of the show the vaunted vault will be transported back to Oregon in a used Brinks Truck recently purchased by PWCC. The truck is festooned with a variety of stickers to misdirect highway bandits regarding the truck's contents.

The National display is so innovative in concept that it will be set up the same way at their Oregon edifice. After all, what's good for the hobby is good for the lobby.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by topcat61

Here's why I would trust a Forensic Document Examiner over a grader any day of the week -

"Forensic document examiners, also often referred to as questioned document examiners, are forensic scientists who are responsible for using a number of scientific processes and methods for examining documents—whether written, typed, or printed—related to a crime scene investigation.

Forensic document examiners should not to be confused with graphologists, who are handwriting analysis practitioners that claim to be able to discern personality characteristics based on handwriting features. Graphology is largely viewed as a pseudoscience in the eyes of the scientific community.

Forensic document examiners, on the other hand, are skilled forensics scientists with a demonstrated expertise in applied questioned document examination. They are handwriting experts, as well as experts in other areas of document examination, including machine printing processes; and obliterated, indented and erased entries.

The most common type of questioned document examination involves identifying the authorship of a written letter. It is also common for forensic document examiners to determine if an item originated from the same source as a known item, determine when a document was produced, and decipher information on a document that has been erased, hidden, or obscured.

Forensic document examiners may perform the following:

Examine documents for signs that they have been forged or altered
Compare signatures and handwriting through handwriting analysis to determine the authorship of documents
Examine typed documents and link them to specific machines or computers (printing process examinations)
Decipher the contents of documents that have been partially destroyed or altered
Compare fractured or cut-edge comparisons on a variety of surfaces, including paper and tape
Examine incidents of indented writing
Perform alternate light source examinations to determine ink discrimination, alterations, and/or enhancements
Forensic document examiners commonly work in local, state or federal crime labs. A number of these professionals work through private investigative companies, although this type of work is generally geared toward civil cases. Forensic document examiners are also often called to testify as experts in criminal cases".*

*crimesceneinvestigatoredu.org

Nearly all of that is about judging the content or authorship of a written or typed document. If the card is signed, sure.
Maybe it's just a side effect of the number of crooked autograph authenticators that claim to be "forensic document examiners" (See the autograph section for more info)

In a general sense, they could probably identify some bad alterations, but getting it right on an alteration that's done well? That takes specific specialized information, which I don't believe most of them have.
It wouldn't be hard for them to get it, but the specialized info isn't something they just know.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

PWCC has their vaunted vault (please use "vaunted vault" going forward when referring to the "vault") at the National consisting of high grade cards in modest display cases on several easels that are not secured to the floor. They do have a uniformed guard however. Once the show closes each evening the vault is moved to an undisclosed location with the uniformed guard. At the conclusion of the show the vaunted vault will be transported back to Oregon in a used Brinks Truck recently purchased by PWCC. The truck is festooned with a variety of stickers to misdirect highway bandits regarding the truck's contents.

The National display is so innovative in concept that it will be set up the same way at their Oregon edifice. After all, what's good for the hobby is good for the lobby.

Whats good for the Hobby is good for the Lobby.......Dang thats awesome!!!

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The National display is so innovative in concept that it will be set up the same way at their Oregon edifice. After all, what's good for the hobby is good for the lobby.

They better not call that the 'hobby lobby' as the name is already taken..

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by whitehse

Whats good for the Hobby is good for the Lobby.......Dang thats awesome!!!

Of course when they open in London they will use a bobby in the lobby to guard their Cobby.

[swarmee]

PWCC and owners of altered cards now going on the offensive against message boards.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4160

Will be interesting to see if this kind of thing actually makes it into court. Would be interesting to see Beckett graders called in as "expert" witnesses and then get shown a mountain of trimmed cards in their slabs proving them wrong.

[benjulmag]

Probably the last place I would go to have something re-examined is the place that is accused of getting it wrong the first time and which stands to take a big financial hit if it can be shown they erred. This comment is not intended to single out Beckett, but is simply to make the point that in order for a re-examination to have significant meaning, it needs to be conducted by a company that has no economic stake in the outcome.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by swarmee

PWCC and owners of altered cards now going on the offensive against message boards.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4160

Will be interesting to see if this kind of thing actually makes it into court. Would be interesting to see Beckett graders called in as "expert" witnesses and then get shown a mountain of trimmed cards in their slabs proving them wrong.

John, can you post a link to the Blowout thread that analyzes the card and determines its been altered? Thanks

[egbeachley]

Post 6606

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=266

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

PWCC and owners of altered cards now going on the offensive against message boards.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4160

Will be interesting to see if this kind of thing actually makes it into court. Would be interesting to see Beckett graders called in as "expert" witnesses and then get shown a mountain of trimmed cards in their slabs proving them wrong.

Thanks for the update. Really what else would you expect from a bunch of scamming pieces of trash.

[Jim65]

I was wondering they were gonna start threatening the people who out their crimes.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

John, can you post a link to the Blowout thread that analyzes the card and determines its been altered? Thanks

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=262

You can start at post 6547 (page 262) re the Giannis card...

Start at the beginning of you want to read a horror book

[byrone]

Originally Posted by swarmee

PWCC and owners of altered cards now going on the offensive against message boards.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4160

Now that's funny stuff...sitcom material, really

[irv]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Probably the last place I would go to have something re-examined is the place that is accused of getting it wrong the first time and which stands to take a big financial hit if it can be shown they erred. This comment is not intended to single out Beckett, but is simply to make the point that in order for a re-examination to have significant meaning, it needs to be conducted by a company that has no economic stake in the outcome.

It's really amazing they think we are as stupid as they think we are.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Probably the last place I would go to have something re-examined is the place that is accused of getting it wrong the first time and which stands to take a big financial hit if it can be shown they erred. This comment is not intended to single out Beckett, but is simply to make the point that in order for a re-examination to have significant meaning, it needs to be conducted by a company that has no economic stake in the outcome.

Saw this comment posted in another tread, and thought is was appropriate to add it to Corey's thoughts...

Having Beckett re-review the card is like consulting the doctor who committed malpractice for a second opinion. Common sense alone dictates that you take the card to someone else.

Talk about a conflict of interest. This is criminal.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=262

You can start at post 6547 (page 262) re the Giannis card...

Start at the beginning of you want to read a horror book

I have been following that thread for months. I just never really focus on cards newer than 90 years old, so this one did not sit with me (I don’t even know why it’s so special). Anyway, it 100% looks trimmed. There is no doubt. BGS sucks ass. I have no pity that that card lost substantial value as a result of good, honest reporting.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Saw this comment posted in another tread, and thought is was appropriate to add it to Corey's thoughts...

Having Beckett re-review the card is like consulting the doctor who committed malpractice for a second opinion. Common sense alone dictates that you take the card to someone else.

Talk about a conflict of interest. This is criminal.

its just a battle of the experts. I think if they said 'yeah 40 of the cards we missed by mistake but we are right about this 1 card' that would be a tough road. Who knows what the argument will ultimately be. I wonder if Beckett confirmed any past trimming or are they just used for their positive opinions.

But yeah i assume some 'trims' may not be easy to prove were trimmed.

[mq711]

I think what will loose it for the compliment is the same excuse the TPGs always use: it’s just an”opinion,” everyone can have one.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

The truth can't be libelous...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

The truth can't be libelous...

I don't think so. If I am not mistaking the truth is the best defense.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't think so. If I am not mistaking the truth is the best defense.

Exactly. Of course being right and being willing to deal with it in court and all the associated expenses is another story. That's precisely why lawyers send scare letters. Apparently in this case, as in many, it worked.

[JunkyJoe]

... if a certain swindler is high on drugs most of the time? I can't help but make certain behavioral connections to the biography of that sleazy Belfort dude in The Wolf Of Wallstreet.

[japhi]

Best part about that letter is the “investor” that deems the card is now worth half based on the thread at BO. The implication is that the discussion itself is what hurts the cards value as opposed to the alleged alteration.

Which of course is ridiculous, the investor obviously believes that the alteration occurred and that the card has an AUTH value, hence the 350k.

And FWIW, I don’t blame PWCC for playing this game where they send the cards back to the TPG. Card was graded in 2006. Lots of shenanigans with PWCC but this is clearly on the TPG.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't think so. If I am not mistaking the truth is the best defense.

The entire thing is totally absurd Truth is stranger than fiction.

https://youtu.be/sxAk3B_zS5k?t=84

[bounce]

You guys all obviously forgot

PICTURES AREN'T EVIDENCE!

also, it's apparently "...stemming from the publc message board statement...". PUBLC - got it.

[bounce]

and one more thing - can you not just put that card next to another one from the set, ok another one of the lebrons for that matter, and figure out that it's short?

anyway...back to the beginning of the 20th century for me.

[Rhotchkiss]

It is my understanding that the pwcc letter was not sent to blowout, but rather was provided to (one or more) investors in an effort to validate value and to disclose the situation.

[Bigdaddy]

Reminds me of the six phases of a big project:

1. Enthusiasm, "Hey, PSA is here to save the day" "Never get cheated"
2. Disillusionment, "Wait, those cards look strange, altered almost"
3. Panic, hysteria and overtime, "Oh crap, I've got high grade PSAs in my collection"
4. Hunt for the guilty, BODA hard at work, unearthing evidence
5. Punishment of the innocent, "PWCC: Here's a letter from my lawyer, stop looking for dirt"
6. Reward for the uninvolved. We'll see.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

It is my understanding that the pwcc letter was not sent to blowout, but rather was provided to (one or more) investors in an effort to validate value and to disclose the situation.

Almost sounds like they're trying to assess damages to Blowout or the posters.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Almost sounds like they're trying to assess damages to Blowout or the posters.

Ah, the old “the truth is not the problem, but rather the person pointing out said truth” defense. Wonder where I’ve seen that before.

[MULLINS5]

Looks like the card owner contacted Brent with concerns, Brent suggested the card go back to Beckett, Beckett confirmed grade, Brent then writes a letter saying he believes the card has lost half if it's value due to Blowout (not specifically named) and now the owner wants talks about the card's alterations to stop. Brent didn't have to put anything about value in the letter, all he had to do was say the card checked out, but instead he wants his customer to put heat onto the message board. Unprofessional and petty.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Exactly. Of course being right and being willing to deal with it in court and all the associated expenses is another story. That's precisely why lawyers send scare letters. Apparently in this case, as in many, it worked.

One of the bigger scum bags in the hobby is always threatening with his lawyer when called out for his super shady dealings. Seems to work pretty good for him.