Now I know where Coach's Corners crap goes

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

"EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT MORALES" We'll guess what.... they don't. He is despicable. Other FDE's that Rubber stamp forgeries are also equally despicable. We all know who they are by now.

Just look of the parade of FDE junk coming in on Pawn Stars and The Real Deal (new auction show). Clearly "everyone" didn't get the memo about Morales, Max, Frangipani, et. al.

[Sportsnutcards]

I get 100's of dollars of bad autographs that walk into the store every week. Most of these are from the novice collector who have no clue, but many of them paid top dollar for these autographs because they just wanted to have something signed by the player and trusted whoever they were buying it from. While JSA and PSA have made mistakes, there is no way that the amount of bad stuff certified by them is anywhere near equal to the amount of bad autographs that have been certified by the "rubber-Stampers" or from the other major dealers who were found to be selling a large amount of fakes.

[perezfan]

Agree 100%. There's no comparison. It's silly to even mention them in the same breath.

Some people here have an axe to grind... probably because one of their prized possessions was shot down at some point. There's a world of difference between a company that makes a few inevitable mistakes, and companies that knowingly and willfully authenticate bad material for the sake of profit.

[David Atkatz]

Except for the fact that the bad stuff they certify is so bad that no one with an ounce of experience would buy any of it. But a PSA certified forgery can go for $300,000 to a sophisticated collector.

So who's worse for "the hobby"?

I'm certainly not worried about being fooled by a Morales-certified fake. But a really good forgery? Certed by PSA? Yeah, that worries me.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Everyone makes mistakes. But there's a big difference between an authentication company that makes an honest mistake, and someone who gives "blanket authentication" for every autograph that crosses their desk.

I would like someone to prove to me that Chris Morales actually has a "rejection folder." If Chris Morales routinely "authenticates" crap like the items below, then I would love to see his so-called "rejection folder."

The ink is still wet on the first item shown below.

Coachs-1.jpg

Coachs-2.jpg

[RichardSimon]

You can see where the ink "welled" up on that Ott when the "signer" slowed down.
Mr Morales you and I differ on the authenticity of that item.

[thetruthisoutthere]

On that Presidents Signed Baseball certed by Morales, Lee Trythall writes "Probably one-of-a-kind." He conveniently forgets that Coach's Corner has listed multiples of Presidents Signed Baseballs.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

You can see where the ink "welled" up on that Ott when the "signer" slowed down.
Mr Morales you and I differ on the authenticity of that item.

Interesting, bout the welled up Ink. Im learning more every day. Thx Richard. And that presidents ball..hehe. it is still wet, plus Hoover is probably signed in Sharpie

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Except for the fact that the bad stuff they certify is so bad that no one with an ounce of experience would buy any of it. But a PSA certified forgery can go for $300,000 to a sophisticated collector.

So who's worse for "the hobby"?

I'm certainly not worried about being fooled by a Morales-certified fake. But a really good forgery? Certed by PSA? Yeah, that worries me.

For an educated/sophisticated collector such as yourself, the latter is admittedly worse. But concerning the hobby as a whole, I believe the former is worse. Hundreds of novice and new collectors entering the hobby will be burned, and this will slow/halt the growth of the hobby. We all started somewhere! While perhaps not as costly on a "per item" basis, the bogus forensic certed items must outnumber the PSA/JSA errors by 10 to 1.

The PSA/JSA examples are (for the most part) mistakes... It is the intent to deceive that differentiates a mistake from a criminal act. To me, that's the aspect which is most unacceptable.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The PSA/JSA examples are (for the most part) mistakes... It is the intent to deceive that differentiates a mistake from a criminal act. To me, that's the aspect which is most unacceptable.

Autographic forgeries date back to Roman times. Human nature being what it is, and greed being what it is, one will never eliminate the intent--or the attempt--to deceive. Never.

What is the point of posting, each and every month, some new forgeries available on Coach's Corner? Does anyone really think the bidders are here, and will be warned away? Have years of YouTube videos and "ooh, ooh, look how bad this one is" postings here made a difference in the flood of low-grade garbage? Not according to Chris, who states that "not too many are aware how much bad stuff is really out there. To tell you the truth, the number is incomprehensible to the average collector." If Chris is right, than one might as well try emptying the Atlantic with a teaspoon.

But, one can eliminate the system that has caused so many to "buy the certificate, rather than the autograph."

[perezfan]

Yep... Two schools of thought, and both are valid. Sure, there's probably a point of diminishing return with all of the Coach's Corner/Ace/Morales threads. I've come to view them as entertainment more than anything else. Some of the fakes are downright funny. But that doesn't make these criminal outfits any less despicable.

We all have our own personal experiences with this stuff. I guess that's what motivates us to react differently than others might. I've only had positive experiences with Spence and PSA. Over the years, a few pieces I gambled on (and hoped were good) were rejected... and probably deservedly so. That would not have been the case with those other "forensic fools".

[steve B]

True you'll never get rid of forgeries or forgers of anything.

But posting here or anywhere else isn't useless.

Since I collect baseball stuff in general I sometimes get offered stuff third hand. Usually stuff from a friends mothers friend (Yeah, sounds odd but that's how it goes)

The last two have been autographed prints. With COAs from places I've never heard of. And since the sellers are older the best I get is usally a cell phone pic of it hung on the wall.
Googling the COA issuers sometimes brings me back here. And the news is never good. Even if it doesn't bring me here the news has yet to be good.

So if someone is considering CC or any of those places and does the slightest bit of research the posts are worth it.

Steve B

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Autographic forgeries date back to Roman times. Human nature being what it is, and greed being what it is, one will never eliminate the intent--or the attempt--to deceive. Never.

What is the point of posting, each and every month, some new forgeries available on Coach's Corner? Does anyone really think the bidders are here, and will be warned away? Have years of YouTube videos and "ooh, ooh, look how bad this one is" postings here made a difference in the flood of low-grade garbage? Not according to Chris, who states that "not too many are aware how much bad stuff is really out there. To tell you the truth, the number is incomprehensible to the average collector." If Chris is right, than one might as well try emptying the Atlantic with a teaspoon.

But, one can eliminate the system that has caused so many to "buy the certificate, rather than the autograph."

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Hundreds of novice and new collectors entering the hobby will be burned, and this will slow/halt the growth of the hobby.

You are as right as anyone could possibly be.
This is perhaps the smartest sentence in this thread and is something that I have always thought to be true.
Everytime there is an expose of the sports autograph hobby on TV or newspaper I shudder because without any doubt we will lose future collectors because of it.
Threads like this hopefully can warn some of them before they make mistakes. And if someone thinks these threads are a waste of time, well don't read the thread.

[GrayGhost]

I love these threads and have learned more about autographs on here in the last few months than I could ever learn. So, if its about a super expensive GH Ruth signed piece, or a Derek Jeter signed photo, keep exposing the forgeries and bad FDA's and "Authenticators"

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Sportsnutcards

I get 100's of dollars of bad autographs that walk into the store every week. Most of these are from the novice collector who have no clue, but many of them paid top dollar for these autographs because they just wanted to have something signed by the player and trusted whoever they were buying it from. While JSA and PSA have made mistakes, there is no way that the amount of bad stuff certified by them is anywhere near equal to the amount of bad autographs that have been certified by the "rubber-Stampers" or from the other major dealers who were found to be selling a large amount of fakes.

the amount isn't as important as the total $ amount of realized sales. which isn't even close though. a ten dollar mantle versus a 50,000, 100,000, or 150,000 dollar or more signed ball?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by travrosty

the amount isn't as important as the total $ amount of realized sales. which isn't even close though. a ten dollar mantle versus a 50,000, 100,000, or 150,000 dollar or more signed ball?

What about 20,000 Mantles that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Add to that 1,000 Ali signed photos that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Etc., etc.

So the amount still isn't important?

[Sportsnutcards]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

What about 20,000 Mantles that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Add to that 1,000 Ali signed photos that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Etc., etc.

So the amount still isn't important?

I had a customer with brough in 6 Dozen bad Dimaggio balls who paid $125 apiece, along with a ton of other bad stuff.. Probably in total the guy had about $20K worth of stuff that was no good. I just don't think many understand how much bad stuff is out there that gets purchased by the uninformed on a daly basis.

[yanks12025]

Has anyone made up a fake auto and sent it in to get a letter from him?

[Shoeless Moe]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270888932329

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Sportsnutcards

I had a customer with brough in 6 Dozen bad Dimaggio balls who paid $125 apiece, along with a ton of other bad stuff.. Probably in total the guy had about $20K worth of stuff that was no good. I just don't think many understand how much bad stuff is out there that gets purchased by the uninformed on a daly basis.

You're right, Sportsnutcards, that not too many are aware how much bad stuff is really out there. To tell you the truth, the number is incomprehensible to the average collector; the other truth is that people don't want to believe it.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here is that piece of crap forgery. Another piece of crap "authenticated" by Ted Taylor.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270888932329

celeb-1.jpg

celeb-2.jpg

celeb-3.jpg

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

What about 20,000 Mantles that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Add to that 1,000 Ali signed photos that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Etc., etc.

So the amount still isn't important?

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