Now I know where Coach's Corners crap goes

[David Atkatz]

Except for the fact that the bad stuff they certify is so bad that no one with an ounce of experience would buy any of it. But a PSA certified forgery can go for $300,000 to a sophisticated collector.

So who's worse for "the hobby"?

I'm certainly not worried about being fooled by a Morales-certified fake. But a really good forgery? Certed by PSA? Yeah, that worries me.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Everyone makes mistakes. But there's a big difference between an authentication company that makes an honest mistake, and someone who gives "blanket authentication" for every autograph that crosses their desk.

I would like someone to prove to me that Chris Morales actually has a "rejection folder." If Chris Morales routinely "authenticates" crap like the items below, then I would love to see his so-called "rejection folder."

The ink is still wet on the first item shown below.

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[RichardSimon]

You can see where the ink "welled" up on that Ott when the "signer" slowed down.
Mr Morales you and I differ on the authenticity of that item.

[thetruthisoutthere]

On that Presidents Signed Baseball certed by Morales, Lee Trythall writes "Probably one-of-a-kind." He conveniently forgets that Coach's Corner has listed multiples of Presidents Signed Baseballs.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

You can see where the ink "welled" up on that Ott when the "signer" slowed down.
Mr Morales you and I differ on the authenticity of that item.

Interesting, bout the welled up Ink. Im learning more every day. Thx Richard. And that presidents ball..hehe. it is still wet, plus Hoover is probably signed in Sharpie

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Except for the fact that the bad stuff they certify is so bad that no one with an ounce of experience would buy any of it. But a PSA certified forgery can go for $300,000 to a sophisticated collector.

So who's worse for "the hobby"?

I'm certainly not worried about being fooled by a Morales-certified fake. But a really good forgery? Certed by PSA? Yeah, that worries me.

For an educated/sophisticated collector such as yourself, the latter is admittedly worse. But concerning the hobby as a whole, I believe the former is worse. Hundreds of novice and new collectors entering the hobby will be burned, and this will slow/halt the growth of the hobby. We all started somewhere! While perhaps not as costly on a "per item" basis, the bogus forensic certed items must outnumber the PSA/JSA errors by 10 to 1.

The PSA/JSA examples are (for the most part) mistakes... It is the intent to deceive that differentiates a mistake from a criminal act. To me, that's the aspect which is most unacceptable.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The PSA/JSA examples are (for the most part) mistakes... It is the intent to deceive that differentiates a mistake from a criminal act. To me, that's the aspect which is most unacceptable.

Autographic forgeries date back to Roman times. Human nature being what it is, and greed being what it is, one will never eliminate the intent--or the attempt--to deceive. Never.

What is the point of posting, each and every month, some new forgeries available on Coach's Corner? Does anyone really think the bidders are here, and will be warned away? Have years of YouTube videos and "ooh, ooh, look how bad this one is" postings here made a difference in the flood of low-grade garbage? Not according to Chris, who states that "not too many are aware how much bad stuff is really out there. To tell you the truth, the number is incomprehensible to the average collector." If Chris is right, than one might as well try emptying the Atlantic with a teaspoon.

But, one can eliminate the system that has caused so many to "buy the certificate, rather than the autograph."

[perezfan]

Yep... Two schools of thought, and both are valid. Sure, there's probably a point of diminishing return with all of the Coach's Corner/Ace/Morales threads. I've come to view them as entertainment more than anything else. Some of the fakes are downright funny. But that doesn't make these criminal outfits any less despicable.

We all have our own personal experiences with this stuff. I guess that's what motivates us to react differently than others might. I've only had positive experiences with Spence and PSA. Over the years, a few pieces I gambled on (and hoped were good) were rejected... and probably deservedly so. That would not have been the case with those other "forensic fools".

[steve B]

True you'll never get rid of forgeries or forgers of anything.

But posting here or anywhere else isn't useless.

Since I collect baseball stuff in general I sometimes get offered stuff third hand. Usually stuff from a friends mothers friend (Yeah, sounds odd but that's how it goes)

The last two have been autographed prints. With COAs from places I've never heard of. And since the sellers are older the best I get is usally a cell phone pic of it hung on the wall.
Googling the COA issuers sometimes brings me back here. And the news is never good. Even if it doesn't bring me here the news has yet to be good.

So if someone is considering CC or any of those places and does the slightest bit of research the posts are worth it.

Steve B

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Autographic forgeries date back to Roman times. Human nature being what it is, and greed being what it is, one will never eliminate the intent--or the attempt--to deceive. Never.

What is the point of posting, each and every month, some new forgeries available on Coach's Corner? Does anyone really think the bidders are here, and will be warned away? Have years of YouTube videos and "ooh, ooh, look how bad this one is" postings here made a difference in the flood of low-grade garbage? Not according to Chris, who states that "not too many are aware how much bad stuff is really out there. To tell you the truth, the number is incomprehensible to the average collector." If Chris is right, than one might as well try emptying the Atlantic with a teaspoon.

But, one can eliminate the system that has caused so many to "buy the certificate, rather than the autograph."

[thetruthisoutthere]

I've been writing for blogs and doing videos on Coach's Corner, Chris Morales and Ted Taylor for a long, long time, and I will continue to give them all of the "free advertising" they deserve.

Until Leon or Dan tells me that I should stop posting about Coach's Corner and Chris Morales, I will continue to do what I do.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Hundreds of novice and new collectors entering the hobby will be burned, and this will slow/halt the growth of the hobby.

You are as right as anyone could possibly be.
This is perhaps the smartest sentence in this thread and is something that I have always thought to be true.
Everytime there is an expose of the sports autograph hobby on TV or newspaper I shudder because without any doubt we will lose future collectors because of it.
Threads like this hopefully can warn some of them before they make mistakes. And if someone thinks these threads are a waste of time, well don't read the thread.

[GrayGhost]

I love these threads and have learned more about autographs on here in the last few months than I could ever learn. So, if its about a super expensive GH Ruth signed piece, or a Derek Jeter signed photo, keep exposing the forgeries and bad FDA's and "Authenticators"

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here's another masterpiece authenticated by Stat Authentic (Ted Taylor/Jeff Stevens). What a horrible forgery!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOU-GEHRIG-B...item2eba97bcda


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[travrosty]

everytime i see an expose on the autograph hobby, i am glad the fraudsters and forgers are caught and exposed, and if it is an authentication company, great! they already know that what they are doing is incredibly flawed, but they take no reforms or actions themselves, they are very comfortable in their warm bath water. They think they can do it forever.

the hobbys swimming pool needs to be drained, cleaned, scrubbed, disinfected and filled back up with clean, fresh water.

I don't think we will lose collectors, but i hope what happens is that collectors wont just rely on an authentication company totally out of publicity or perceived reputation, but instead do some homework, slow down and take a little time to buy an autograph instead of an impulse buy because it has an abc or xyz sticker.

If the collector base shrinks a bit, maybe prices will come down, thats okay, but i dont think there will ever be a mass exodus of collectors, especially baseball, its too popular a sport.

What is happening now is not working, its a flawed, closed circuit system that benefits some at the expense of others. look at haulsofshame. 99.99 percent of the collectors out there dont know about the christy mathewson signed 'won in the ninth' controversy, the babe ruth signed ball controversy, they need to know. when 10,000 dollar, 50,000 dollar, 100,000 dollar and up pieces get sold with an authentication sticker from abc and xyz and these companies don't acknowledge anything, don't say anything and ignore, something needs to be done. good old competition would solve it but the people making the money on the current system don't want any.

[RichardSimon]

True there probably won't be a mass exodus of collectors from the baseball hobby.
But the influx we would actually like to see (if they make the prices go up, then our collections go up in value) is not taking place.
I still do nicely in my business of buying and selling autographs but find it harder to find new collectors who want to start collecting HOF autographs. The more common HOFers in my inventory now sit for a long time before they get sold.
Years ago, I would get multiple orders of HOF autographs in the $20-$50 range, it was obvious these were from newer collectors starting their HOF autograph collections. I rarely see that type of order now. Though Speaker, Young, Lajoie, Alexander, etc. still fly away quickly when I do get them in inventory.
The bottom line is new collectors are not coming into the hobby the way they used to.
Though the economy is probably a factor in that also.