Check out this brutal Koufax signed 3 x 5 on eBay!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

Sorry, forgot that was in the description. Anyway so it's not real and Im out 3 bucks.

Rick, I assume you will be canceling your Koufax auction.

[mmcgruff]

Yes I will do that right away. Thanks for the message.
It is a fake, right?

[mmcgruff]

Can you tell me what indicates what makes it not real please? It looks like the same to me from what is on the dust jacket.
Thanks......

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Scott- Thanks for the Koufax info, I guess I will just miss out on him. I don't begrudge anybody their dollars but that is out of my budget. Wow?

In Sandy's defense, didn't he lose just about everything in the Madoff scheme or am I just dreaming this?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Scott- Thanks for the Koufax info, I guess I will just miss out on him. I don't begrudge anybody their dollars but that is out of my budget. Wow?

In Sandy's defense, didn't he lose just about everything in the Madoff scheme or am I just dreaming this?

Mike,
I hope that he wasn't amongst those that got scammed by Madoff, but I'm not sure. My pleasure for answering your questions.

[mr2686]

Koufax did invest with Madoff but not sure how much. For what it's worth, Koufax is a pretty savvy business man. Back in the day he was getting paid in cash for his appearances while others were taking checks and having an IRS paper trail. I would find it hard to believe he would have all his eggs in one basket.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_164283.html

[Lordstan]

Here are the seller's other items.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Autographs-O...=p3911.c0.m282

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by mr2686

For what it's worth, Koufax is a pretty savvy business man. Back in the day he was getting paid in cash for his appearances while others were taking checks and having an IRS paper trail.[/url]

What you are insinuating does not make him savvy, it makes him a tax criminal. Stealing from US taxpayers is similar to Madoff stealing from his associates. On a much smaller scale, of course.

[ss]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

Can you tell me what indicates what makes it not real please? It looks like the same to me from what is on the dust jacket.
Thanks......

Both are bad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcgruff
Can you tell me what indicates what makes it not real please? It looks like the same to me from what is on the dust jacket.
Thanks......

Originally Posted by ss

Both are bad!

The pre-printed facsimile auto on the dust jacket is bad?

I'm not sure I personally would have pulled this auction just based on the comments I've read in this thread. 3 people said it was "bad", but without providing any explanations or personal credentials; 1 of those even said the actual pre-printed dustjacket signature was bad; 2 of the parties disagreed later downthread about the authenticity of various other signatures. Not exactly a consensus, IMO.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcgruff
Can you tell me what indicates what makes it not real please? It looks like the same to me from what is on the dust jacket.
Thanks......




The pre-printed facsimile auto on the dust jacket is bad?

I'm not sure I personally would have pulled this auction just based on the comments I've read in this thread. 3 people said it was "bad", but without providing any explanations or personal credentials; 1 of those even said the actual pre-printed dustjacket signature was bad; 2 of the parties disagreed later downthread about the authenticity of various other signatures. Not exactly a consensus, IMO.

Hi Karl,

You ask a fair question. As with many players, Sandy Koufax's signature has definately changed through the years. I would like to give you a quick look at the evolution of Sandy Koufax's signature from 1956-1972 just to illustrate the point.

The first image is a dated GPC (government postcard) from 1956.
The next three are authentic signed 3 x 5 index cards of Sandy (from top to bottom in the scan) of Sandy's autograph in the early 1960's, mid 1960's (1964-1966) and 1971-1972 respectively.

Once you have looked at these authentic signatures, please compare these to the book in question. Do you still have any uncertainty that both the facsimile signature and autograph in the book both display a bad Koufax signature?

One point to remember is that the 1st edition of the book pictured here, entitled "Koufax" by author Ed Linn, was published in 1966. A real Koufax autograph on this book would look like the mid 1960's autograph that I showed you or later. Nothing like what was shown in the auction screen shot photos the thetruthisoutthere showed us earlier.

BTW, Koufax's signature has evolved even more since the early 70's. Nowdays his signature barely shows any top portion of the "S" and the two pen strokes that Koufax uses to sign the "K" almost look like the parallel lines have become one. Much different than anything that I showed you here...

I hope this helps. Good collecting!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Well written, Scott.

My problem wasn't whether or not his (MMCGRUFF) Koufax was a forgery or genuine, or if it was removed from Ebay or not. My issue is why Mr. Mmcgruff didn't pull his Koufax auction after everyone questioned the authenticity of it.

Remember, he (MMCGRUFF) was the one who posted his Koufax for advice.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Karl,

You ask a fair question. As with many players, Sandy Koufax's signature has definately changed through the years. I would like to give you a quick look at the evolution of Sandy Koufax's signature from 1956-1972 just to illustrate the point.

The first image is a dated GPC (government postcard) from 1956.
The next three are authentic signed 3 x 5 index cards of Sandy (from top to bottom in the scan) of Sandy's autograph in the early 1960's, mid 1960's (1964-1966) and 1971-1972 respectively.

Once you have looked at these authentic signatures, please compare these to the book in question. Do you still have any uncertainty that both the facsimile signature and autograph in the book both display a bad Koufax signature?

One point to remember is that the 1st edition of the book pictured here, entitled "Koufax" by author Ed Linn, was published in 1966. A real Koufax autograph on this book would look like the mid 1960's autograph that I showed you or later. Nothing like what was shown in the auction screen shot photos the thetruthisoutthere showed us earlier.

BTW, Koufax's signature has evolved even more since the early 70's. Nowdays his signature barely shows any top portion of the "S" and the two pen strokes that Koufax uses to sign the "K" almost look like the parallel lines have become one. Much different than anything that I showed you here...

I hope this helps. Good collecting!

Fantastic signature study information on Koufax. Thanks much!

[mmcgruff]

I changed the words in the description that I believe the autograph was real but also explained that I would give the buyer 30 days for having it examined or I will give a full refund. Found out today that Ebay removed the listing due to some questions on it not being authentic.
I asked earlier about what makes it not real. Could somebody explain that to me but never got an answer on that.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Karl,

You ask a fair question. As with many players, Sandy Koufax's signature has definately changed through the years. I would like to give you a quick look at the evolution of Sandy Koufax's signature from 1956-1972 just to illustrate the point.

The first image is a dated GPC (government postcard) from 1956.
The next three are authentic signed 3 x 5 index cards of Sandy (from top to bottom in the scan) of Sandy's autograph in the early 1960's, mid 1960's (1964-1966) and 1971-1972 respectively.

Once you have looked at these authentic signatures, please compare these to the book in question. Do you still have any uncertainty that both the facsimile signature and autograph in the book both display a bad Koufax signature?

One point to remember is that the 1st edition of the book pictured here, entitled "Koufax" by author Ed Linn, was published in 1966. A real Koufax autograph on this book would look like the mid 1960's autograph that I showed you or later. Nothing like what was shown in the auction screen shot photos the thetruthisoutthere showed us earlier.

BTW, Koufax's signature has evolved even more since the early 70's. Nowdays his signature barely shows any top portion of the "S" and the two pen strokes that Koufax uses to sign the "K" almost look like the parallel lines have become one. Much different than anything that I showed you here...

I hope this helps. Good collecting!

Scott,
I also collect Koufax items, and have many of his signatures organized by date to help me authenticate items of his. I agree with your assessment of the signature in the book, and tour samples for 1956, early 60's, and early 70's, but I think your signed index card for mid-60's isn't correct. I don't believe he started using an "S" like on your index card until much later (80's or 90's), but stopped using the "K" like on your card in around 1964-65. I also think the slant and letter formation isn't consistent with his signature back then.
Pictured below is his signature from Dec. 1966 when he signed with NBC to do color commentary and other work for the network, and your index card from the same time period.

Rick
page 15 cropped.jpg

Koufax%20signature%20evolution%201960's-1970's cropped.jpg

[mmcgruff]

I just read your comment Karl. I appreciate your input on this. The name on the dust cover looks the same to me on the book too.
Rick

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

I just read your comment Karl. I appreciate your input on this. The name on the dust cover looks the same to me on the book too.
Rick

Geez Rick,

Did none of the info that I presented make any sense to you?
I'm speechless right now.....

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

Yes I will do that right away. Thanks for the message.
It is a fake, right?

I see you haven't taken down your Koufax auction yet? With all of the questions and doubts about it, why do you still have it listed on Ebay?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140596573406...84.m1555.l2649

Gam-9.jpg

[thetruthisoutthere]

Looks like Ebay removed it.