Check out this brutal Koufax signed 3 x 5 on eBay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcgruff
Can you tell me what indicates what makes it not real please? It looks like the same to me from what is on the dust jacket.
Thanks......

Originally Posted by ss

Both are bad!

The pre-printed facsimile auto on the dust jacket is bad?

I'm not sure I personally would have pulled this auction just based on the comments I've read in this thread. 3 people said it was "bad", but without providing any explanations or personal credentials; 1 of those even said the actual pre-printed dustjacket signature was bad; 2 of the parties disagreed later downthread about the authenticity of various other signatures. Not exactly a consensus, IMO.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcgruff
Can you tell me what indicates what makes it not real please? It looks like the same to me from what is on the dust jacket.
Thanks......




The pre-printed facsimile auto on the dust jacket is bad?

I'm not sure I personally would have pulled this auction just based on the comments I've read in this thread. 3 people said it was "bad", but without providing any explanations or personal credentials; 1 of those even said the actual pre-printed dustjacket signature was bad; 2 of the parties disagreed later downthread about the authenticity of various other signatures. Not exactly a consensus, IMO.

Hi Karl,

You ask a fair question. As with many players, Sandy Koufax's signature has definately changed through the years. I would like to give you a quick look at the evolution of Sandy Koufax's signature from 1956-1972 just to illustrate the point.

The first image is a dated GPC (government postcard) from 1956.
The next three are authentic signed 3 x 5 index cards of Sandy (from top to bottom in the scan) of Sandy's autograph in the early 1960's, mid 1960's (1964-1966) and 1971-1972 respectively.

Once you have looked at these authentic signatures, please compare these to the book in question. Do you still have any uncertainty that both the facsimile signature and autograph in the book both display a bad Koufax signature?

One point to remember is that the 1st edition of the book pictured here, entitled "Koufax" by author Ed Linn, was published in 1966. A real Koufax autograph on this book would look like the mid 1960's autograph that I showed you or later. Nothing like what was shown in the auction screen shot photos the thetruthisoutthere showed us earlier.

BTW, Koufax's signature has evolved even more since the early 70's. Nowdays his signature barely shows any top portion of the "S" and the two pen strokes that Koufax uses to sign the "K" almost look like the parallel lines have become one. Much different than anything that I showed you here...

I hope this helps. Good collecting!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Well written, Scott.

My problem wasn't whether or not his (MMCGRUFF) Koufax was a forgery or genuine, or if it was removed from Ebay or not. My issue is why Mr. Mmcgruff didn't pull his Koufax auction after everyone questioned the authenticity of it.

Remember, he (MMCGRUFF) was the one who posted his Koufax for advice.

[thecatspajamas]

That seems to be a trend lately: people asking for advice and then completely disregarding it when advice is offered. That certainly isn't the case with everyone asking advice, but there have been a number of late.

[mmcgruff]

Hey Chris,

I did not pull it because there were several watchers on it and that I had guaranteed it for 30 days.
Rick

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

Hey Chris,

I did not pull it because there were several watchers on it and that I had guaranteed it for 30 days.
Rick

Well, Rick, it's always been my feeling that sellers should have and take the responsibility of making sure an autograph is authentic (I know, it isn't an exact science).

A seller, in my opinion, should perform that task, and not the buyer.

Rick, if someone had won your auction and if it was rejected by PSA or JSA, would you have also refunded their authentication fees?

Over the years, I have literally asked hundreds of sellers "If your autograph fails authentication, will you also refund my authentication fees?" Only 5% replied that they would.

I know my comment here can possibly open a can of worms, but it's how I feel about a situation like this.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Karl,

You ask a fair question. As with many players, Sandy Koufax's signature has definately changed through the years. I would like to give you a quick look at the evolution of Sandy Koufax's signature from 1956-1972 just to illustrate the point.

The first image is a dated GPC (government postcard) from 1956.
The next three are authentic signed 3 x 5 index cards of Sandy (from top to bottom in the scan) of Sandy's autograph in the early 1960's, mid 1960's (1964-1966) and 1971-1972 respectively.

Once you have looked at these authentic signatures, please compare these to the book in question. Do you still have any uncertainty that both the facsimile signature and autograph in the book both display a bad Koufax signature?

One point to remember is that the 1st edition of the book pictured here, entitled "Koufax" by author Ed Linn, was published in 1966. A real Koufax autograph on this book would look like the mid 1960's autograph that I showed you or later. Nothing like what was shown in the auction screen shot photos the thetruthisoutthere showed us earlier.

BTW, Koufax's signature has evolved even more since the early 70's. Nowdays his signature barely shows any top portion of the "S" and the two pen strokes that Koufax uses to sign the "K" almost look like the parallel lines have become one. Much different than anything that I showed you here...

I hope this helps. Good collecting!

Fantastic signature study information on Koufax. Thanks much!

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Fantastic signature study information on Koufax. Thanks much!

Chris, Chuck and Rick,

Thanks! No problem, my pleasure. I'm glad that you thought this was helpful given all the questions about specifics.

Best,
Scott

[mmcgruff]

I changed the words in the description that I believe the autograph was real but also explained that I would give the buyer 30 days for having it examined or I will give a full refund. Found out today that Ebay removed the listing due to some questions on it not being authentic.
I asked earlier about what makes it not real. Could somebody explain that to me but never got an answer on that.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Karl,

You ask a fair question. As with many players, Sandy Koufax's signature has definately changed through the years. I would like to give you a quick look at the evolution of Sandy Koufax's signature from 1956-1972 just to illustrate the point.

The first image is a dated GPC (government postcard) from 1956.
The next three are authentic signed 3 x 5 index cards of Sandy (from top to bottom in the scan) of Sandy's autograph in the early 1960's, mid 1960's (1964-1966) and 1971-1972 respectively.

Once you have looked at these authentic signatures, please compare these to the book in question. Do you still have any uncertainty that both the facsimile signature and autograph in the book both display a bad Koufax signature?

One point to remember is that the 1st edition of the book pictured here, entitled "Koufax" by author Ed Linn, was published in 1966. A real Koufax autograph on this book would look like the mid 1960's autograph that I showed you or later. Nothing like what was shown in the auction screen shot photos the thetruthisoutthere showed us earlier.

BTW, Koufax's signature has evolved even more since the early 70's. Nowdays his signature barely shows any top portion of the "S" and the two pen strokes that Koufax uses to sign the "K" almost look like the parallel lines have become one. Much different than anything that I showed you here...

I hope this helps. Good collecting!

Scott,
I also collect Koufax items, and have many of his signatures organized by date to help me authenticate items of his. I agree with your assessment of the signature in the book, and tour samples for 1956, early 60's, and early 70's, but I think your signed index card for mid-60's isn't correct. I don't believe he started using an "S" like on your index card until much later (80's or 90's), but stopped using the "K" like on your card in around 1964-65. I also think the slant and letter formation isn't consistent with his signature back then.
Pictured below is his signature from Dec. 1966 when he signed with NBC to do color commentary and other work for the network, and your index card from the same time period.

Rick
page 15 cropped.jpg

Koufax%20signature%20evolution%201960's-1970's cropped.jpg

[mmcgruff]

I just read your comment Karl. I appreciate your input on this. The name on the dust cover looks the same to me on the book too.
Rick

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

I just read your comment Karl. I appreciate your input on this. The name on the dust cover looks the same to me on the book too.
Rick

Geez Rick,

Did none of the info that I presented make any sense to you?
I'm speechless right now.....

[ss]

Then believe it's real, but it's a horrible forgery.

[mmcgruff]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Geez Rick,

Did none of the info that I presented make any sense to you?
I'm speechless right now.....

I read your message Scott, just didnt get to you until now. Good information, I appreciate it.
Rick