Goodwin Auction is open + Peck & Snyder Discussion

[felada]

The peck and snyder is interesting. There are two distinct types for the Cinci card. While both are typically dated 1869 is the general consensus that the type offered in the auction was issued earlier than the other type?

[jcmtiger]

Jay, sure looks like they graded on centering and corners, did not even look at clarity of photo.

Joe

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Jay, sure looks like they graded on centering and corners, did not even look at clarity of photo.

Joe

That's the problem with grading OJ's the TPG's don't seem to take clarity/fading into account at all when it is the single most important aspect of the card.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

That's the problem with grading OJ's the TPG's don't seem to take clarity/fading into account at all when it is the single most important aspect of the card.

no worries. In a few years, TPGs will change their grading criteria so they can get a bunch of new submittals. Of course though, any card submitted can't be demoted in grade, only raised, so the submitter has nothing to lose! well, except the cost of grading In return, you'll get your same card, but with a different number on the slab.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by felada

The peck and snyder is interesting. There are two distinct types for the Cinci card. While both are typically dated 1869 is the general consensus that the type offered in the auction was issued earlier than the other type?

I have never heard that but I have never heard of a lot of things. I am privy to several different backs on the small ones. The large ones I think I have only seen 2 different colors but not backs.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by felada

The peck and snyder is interesting. There are two distinct types for the Cinci card. While both are typically dated 1869 is the general consensus that the type offered in the auction was issued earlier than the other type?

I am not certain when the type offered by Goodwin is dated. However, for the other type -- the full P&S trade card, the issue date varied from 1869 to 1870. The first version, black with the baseball ad on the verso, most likely was the first issue, released during the 1869 season. The second version, black with the ice skate ad, most likely was issued during the winter of 1869-70. And the third and final version, red with the baseball ad, most likely came out during the 1870 season (the team composition did not change in 1870). 1870 was the year P&S also issued the Athletics, Mutuals and White Stockings trade cards. Of these three, two (Athletics and Mutuals) were issued with colored inks -- blue for the Athletics and green for the Mutuals. Thus it is logical that the 1870 reissue for the Red Stockings would be in a red ink. Supporting this view that the red version was issued in 1870 is that the photo contrast on the red ones is noticably inferior than on the blacks. Constant use of a negative to make prints would over time degrade the negative, thus reducing the quality of the resultant print. Thus it makes sense the red versions would have weaker photo contrast than the earlier black issues. Be careful in evaluating claims by auction houses that sell red ones that the photo contrast is so outstanding. Over the past 25 years I have seen exactly one red version which had photo contrast matching the best blacks. That was over twenty years ago and unfortunately that red one was trimmed.

[iwantitiwinit]

I love that Plank card. Is it just me or does it seem like the frequency of the Plank offerings are even less than the Wagner's. Anyone want to guess what that card goes for? I say $129,000.

[ksfarmboy]

Does anyone else disagree with this being Fred Clarke? Sure doesn't look anything like him to me. If this isn't Clarke has anyone seen a Fred Clarke Hermes Pin?

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetai...in-Fred-Clarke

Clint Hromek

[Matt]

Originally Posted by ksfarmboy

Does anyone else disagree with this being Fred Clarke? Sure doesn't look anything like him to me. If this isn't Clarke has anyone seen a Fred Clarke Hermes Pin?

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetai...in-Fred-Clarke

Clint Hromek

Clint - see here fro a related discussion:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=111717

[oldjudge]

Corey--That's an interesting theory, and may be dead on. Is there any hard evidence to date the Cincinnati cards? You have been doing this a lot longer than I have, and I don't claim to be an expert on these. However, I have had a few blacks and a few reds, including both backs, and mine have had very consistent photo quality across all types. Maybe I was just lucky.

[barrysloate]

Jay- Corey and I have had numerous discussions about the Cincinnati P & S and I agree with all of his points. We are certain that the Jim Creighton was the first one issued although we have no agreement on the date. The Cincinnati one was next and it was extremely popular, so it's not surprising that it would have been reissued. The two different ads on the reverse of the black ones reflect the changing of seasons and the different marketing the store needed to do.

The color mounts seem to have been introduced in 1870, and no question the Cincinnati team was still very popular, so it likely would have still been issued as late as 1870. Assuming the same negative was being used, the quality of the photograph would have been compromised by this time. The Reds winning streak didn't end until June of 1870, and which point the popularity of the club waned. And likewise, the run of Cincinnati trade cards issued by the company also ended.

There really isn't a lot of documentation about this but it appears to make sense.

[E93]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

I love that Plank card. Is it just me or does it seem like the frequency of the Plank offerings are even less than the Wagner's. Anyone want to guess what that card goes for? I say $129,000.

I think the frequency of Planks and Wagners goes in waves. REA had three Planks in their auction last May. From my experience over the long haul they pop up with about equal frequency though for a couple years it may seem like more Wagners, then for a couple years it seems like more Planks.
As for final hammer, I think you are in the ballpark. Could be a little more. I doubt it will go for much less than that.
JimB

[barrysloate]

Jim- can you actually recall a time when more Wagners were auctioned than Planks? I can't. I think Planks show up more frequently.

[E93]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jim- can you actually recall a time when more Wagners were auctioned than Planks? I can't. I think Planks show up more frequently.

Barry,
You may be right. I have a vague recollection that about 8-10 years ago that almost no Planks came up for two or three years while one or two Wagners were coming each year. But my memory is not great. I have certainly never seen an auction with three Wagners in it! Didn't REA even have four Planks one time?
JimB

[E93]

I have been thinking more about the number of Wagners out there. REA estimates roughly 50 in the latest auction write-up. That number makes sense. That means if roughly two are sold every year, that on average the average Wagner stays in its temporary home for about 25 years.

Also, since people like Rob Lifson have been following new finds since the late '60's or early '70's when there were less than 10 known, I would think he would be in a good position to make a reasonably accurate estimate.

I know some estimates are as high as 80-100, but those numbers always seemed high to me. I just think they would be seen much more frequently if the number was that high. If there were a hundred and two a year are publicly traded, then the average owner would hold their copy for 50 years! That seems very high on average.
JimB