JSA Story on Autographalert.com

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by FUBAR

Jim Drysdale

Ok, here is my opinion.... i read the story and it just confirms to me not to go anywhere near anything Coach's Corner. If you read the story and think it paints Coach's Corner in a good light, you can't see the forest for the trees.

The only mistake JSA did was, the didn't back anything Morales.. period.. would any other person on here that has posted, back anything Morales said ... cause im calling Bull Sh*t if you say you would still buy the item!

If I seen an autograph i really wanted and i thought it was real... but then seen the CC, Stat COA, You could tell i was walking away because i would be getting smaller!

I trust three professional people's opinions- JSA, PSA/DNA, and Richard Simon.

While I agree, there is no good conclusion to be drawn from the story re: Coah's corner et al. I STRONGLY disagree with your statement "the only mistake JSA did was....." - IMO the primary mistake that JSA made was looking at ~8 items which he certified as good and 2nd time around certified them as bad - At best one would have to question how qualified he is to authenticate autographs - at worst - agree with the post and accept that he didn't even look at the signatures second trip - only the coa that accompanied it - an irresponsible/inexcusable busniess practice as an authenticator. imho.

-Howard Chasser

[steve B]

Originally Posted by hcv123

While I agree, there is no good conclusion to be drawn from the story re: Coah's corner et al. I STRONGLY disagree with your statement "the only mistake JSA did was....." - IMO the primary mistake that JSA made was looking at ~8 items which he certified as good and 2nd time around certified them as bad - At best one would have to question how qualified he is to authenticate autographs - at worst - agree with the post and accept that he didn't even look at the signatures second trip - only the coa that accompanied it - an irresponsible/inexcusable busniess practice as an authenticator. imho.

-Howard Chasser

I don't see it as a bad business practice to reject out of hand the opinion of someone who makes a living approving bad stuff.

It is probably a bad business practice to justify charging for that rejection by listing reasons. Although maybe not since a rejection simply saying "Fake because it's got a Morales cert" even at no charge will probably draw a lawsuit.

In any field there's people whose opinion is respected, some worthy some not. There are also people who deserve little or no respect for their opinions. And that usually happens because they have a proven track record of having no knowledge of the subject or of being wrong.

Ask me anything about repairing bicycles. I'll probably have a solid answer. And I've got repeat customers who apparently think so too.

Ask me about the certs I made for the diamonds I found in my road side garden. I know they're good, even if I did find them near that broken bottle. And I'll bet your dastardly local jewler will have a good laugh as he tells you they're just broken glass.

Steve Birmingham

[David Atkatz]

Nonsense. They had already certified those autographs as being genuine! Since they seem to render judgments without looking at the autograph, on what basis do you suppose they approved them the first time around?

[steve B]

The items submitted had the original certification markings removed. So they appeared as only having a certificate known to be bad - what 99% of the time? More? Who wouldn't simply reject those without looking at them?

So you're saying that if you were an authenticator you'd spend time actually looking over an autograph with a Morales cert?

Seems like a waste of time to me.

If they wanted to make it a real test they would have later on resubmitted the items without the Morales certs and seen how many got rejected.

But even then I'd be pretty acepting of an error on the side of caution.

They also didn't follow the entire path of the ones from someone else supposedly being stickered without a look. If the person bringing them in is known to have done a private signing, or run a show then the items are most likely good. And pre stickering them is efficient. They never said that they saw the letters being printed without a look, or even that the items didn't get looked at after the stickering.

Steve Birmingham

[ChiefBenderForever]

Steve, isn't his job to look at the auto and not the cert ? Isn't that why people get multiple opinions from different Doctors, Lawyers, Car repairmen, builders, plumbers, ect ect ect.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHarmonica

Steve, isn't his job to look at the auto and not the cert ? Isn't that why people get multiple opinions from different Doctors, Lawyers, Car repairmen, builders, plumbers, etc etc etc.

I agree 100%. I've used JSA a lot in the past but seriously consider not using them again in the future. JSA (as well as the other authenticators) charge, IMO, a ton - but having them certify something for resale is a must in this day and age to get maximum dollar for the piece. The high price I pay is to have JSA look at the signature, NOT the certificate.

That being said, I have two JSA stories to relate, one that pertains to the subject, the other not so much, but relates to business practices.

Around 1999, I met Tiger Woods and had him autograph a huge Nike poster. Soon after that, I brought the poster to a National and had GAI certify it (back when GAI had a good reputation). A few years ago, as GAIs reputation went down the tubes, I decided to have JSA cert the poster. I was extremely worried that JSA was going to look at the GAI sticker in the bottom corner and automatically say no. I brought it to a White Plains show, paid the $100 fee, and could immediately see Spence look at the signature and the GAI sticker. Spence wasn't comfortable saying "yes" before he took pictures and sent them to his golf expert. He did so, and after the golf expert looked at it, JSA certed the poster (as they should have since I knew it 100% without question authentic). I was terribly worried GAI was going to sway them, but JSA did the right thing authenticated the poster on the merits of the signature, not the existing certificate.

Now - a bad JSA experience. Last year, I brought two Duke Maas signature to a White Plains show. I filled out the forms, indicated that the fee was $20/signature, paid my $40 and went on my way. A few hours later, I came back and was told my cards weren't looked at because JSA charges $75 each for Duke Maas. I called bullsh*t on them and told them to look at the website - the fees are stated there. JSA told me their internet was "temporarily" down. I pulled out my handy iPhone and went to the site myself and showed them the $20 fee listed. The guy dealing with me went to talk with Jimmy and came back to tell me that Jimmy would cut me a break and charge me $75.00 for the two. I laughed, and now the cards reside in PSA/DNA holders. (as a disclaimer, before posting this story, I went to JSA's site. The fee is now $40 for Duke Maas, but still not $75, which is what I was told it was last year). Talk about piss poor customer service!

- Jon Canfield

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by canjond

Last year, I brought two Duke Maas signature to a White Plains show. I filled out the forms, indicated that the fee was $20/signature, paid my $40 and went on my way. A few hours later, I came back and was told my cards weren't looked at because JSA charges $75 each for Duke Maas. I called bullsh*t on them and told them to look at the website - the fees are stated there. JSA told me their internet was "temporarily" down. I pulled out my handy iPhone and went to the site myself and showed them the $20 fee listed. The guy dealing with me went to talk with Jimmy and came back to tell me that Jimmy would cut me a break and charge me $75.00 for the two. I laughed, and now the cards reside in PSA/DNA holders. (as a disclaimer, before posting this story, I went to JSA's site. The fee is now $40 for Duke Maas, but still not $75, which is what I was told it was last year). Talk about piss poor customer service!

- Jon Canfield

So basically, JSA told you no Maas?

You've been a great crowd, enjoy Whitesnake!

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by steve B

The items submitted had the original certification markings removed. So they appeared as only having a certificate known to be bad - what 99% of the time? More? Who wouldn't simply reject those without looking at them?

So you're saying that if you were an authenticator you'd spend time actually looking over an autograph with a Morales cert?

Seems like a waste of time to me.

A waste of time? THEY WERE PAID FOR THAT TIME!

Not actually examining the autograph is not only "bad business practice," it is theft.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHarmonica

Steve, isn't his job to look at the auto and not the cert ? Isn't that why people get multiple opinions from different Doctors, Lawyers, Car repairmen, builders, plumbers, ect ect ect.

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

A waste of time? THEY WERE PAID FOR THAT TIME!

Not actually examining the autograph is not only "bad business practice," it is theft.

Some good points there to consider.

With doctors, lawyers, car repairmen etc I generally try to find someone I believe is excellent in their field so that I can trust their opinion. Fortunately I've never had a major medical or legal problem. If it was bad enough I'd get a second opinion. Crummy pop culture reference now, but the difference here strikes me as a House/Dr Nick comparison.
I do most of my own contractor type work, and very nearly all my own plumbing. I've found a couple people that are excellent, and trust their work if it's something I can't handle. The guys that seem clueless never get to the quoting part

I do think David has an excellent point, and in my first post I did say that I thought it was probably bad practice to make up reasons that something was bad to justify charging the fee.I've been convinced that it's definetly poor practice, and not something a reputable company should do. Since it was in person I'd have probably just refused it with no charge. Through the mail would be a bit harder, I can't quite figure out how that sort of rejection would need to be worded legally.
I've been offered a few autographed items in the last couple years that would have been pretty nice, but 5 minutes of research about the quality of the certificates included led me to pass on all of them.

Back to the first point, true story. We get in a bike for a tuneup. With a hole in one tire big enough for me to put 3 fingers through. So we call and tell them they need a new tire, $20 for the tire no extra charge to put it on.
An hour later the wife comes in and says the husband works on cars and says the tire is fine and does not need to be changed! I show her the giant hole by holding up the tire with my fingers through the hole. She sticks with saying it doesn't need changing. And since we won't continue without changing it she'll take it somewhere else. (Which at that point was what I wanted as well) 2 weeks later the husband comes in. With the bike and reciept from another shop. Tuneup $100 instead of our $60. Tire $50 instead of our $20. Labor to put the tire on, another $20. And it still won't shift right and the brakes are dragging. The other shop just put the new tire on and charged them. Wonders if there's anything we can do for him.
We did get him going for a minimal charge, and he's become a regular customer- And doesn't question if we say a part needs replacing


Steve Birmingham

[prewarsports]

Put on your Depends undergarments Glyn I personally would find it easier to spot a fake autograph than a trimmed card and I have about the same amount of expertise in both cards and autographs.

Someone who knows what they are doing can take a 1 second look at a forged Ruth or Mantle and tell which is real and which is not. Even the good forgeries. Literally 1 second.

Even the best card experts in the world would need black lights, measuring devices and magnification etc. They could spot a fake Wagner in 1 second, but try looking at some T206 PSA 9 that has had 1/132" laser shaved off the top border and tell me how long if ever it takes to spot that!

I am not saying 2 experts would not reach the same conclusion, but a 1 second look with the naked eye is a heck of a lot easier than a few minutes with instruments to determine which is the worthless item.

I realize it is like pissing on a forrest fire to try and convince non autograph guys anything positive about the autograph hobby, but with a ton of experience in both cards and autographs, my "OPINION" is that there are more altered cards in PSA holders than there are fake autographs with PSA/DNA stickers.

No need to start anything on my statement above, it is just an opinion and despite anyone trying to tell me it almost made them piss their pants, I will stand behind it.