VERY VERY disgusted with PSA--you won't believe it!!

[barrysloate]

I think we need to look at third party grading in a different light.

They provide a great service by examining a card for trimming and alterations. Assuming they get it right, that's a great thing. And if you like your cards protected in a holder, they provide a nifty one for sure.

It's the number on the label that needs to be reassessed. When you get a card back that's graded, for example, PSA 5, what that really means is: "it's an Excellent today, but tomorrow it may be an EX-MT, next week it might be a VG-EX, and the week after that it may show signs of trimming. We're sorry, we wish we could be more accurate, but we don't really know." If collectors looked at these grades as merely estimates of a general range of condition, they wouldn't obsess over the half grade bumps, and would rarely if ever resubmit their cards.

With many collectors there is far too much emphasis on the label. The advent of the set registry has been most responsible for this. If anyone cares about my opinion, I say it's time to get back to the roots of the hobby: the card, and not the slab. If you must have cards graded, fine, I'm all for it. Just learn to put it all in perspective.

[pgellis]

My 2 cents.....

Because most cards nowadays are purchased through the internet, then graded card makes you feel a little better in knowing that you are paying for what you are going to get on the other end.

I know that I have purchased a few T206s that were raw and a few things have happened:

1. The card looked good on eBay and ended up being "way" trimmed.

2. The card looked really, really good on eBay and once submitted, was told that it was "Trimmed" by a gradind company.

I wish I could go to only raw with my collection, but because 99% of my collection has been purchased off of the internet, I must rely on grading companies.

[oldjudge]

This just goes to prove again (I forget what the first time was) that Pro is the best grading company. You crack out a "10" and resubmit it and it will come back a "10". That's consistency!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think we need to look at third party grading in a different light.

They provide a great service by examining a card for trimming and alterations. Assuming they get it right, that's a great thing. And if you like your cards protected in a holder, they provide a nifty one for sure.

It's the number on the label that needs to be reassessed. When you get a card back that's graded, for example, PSA 5, what that really means is: "it's an Excellent today, but tomorrow it may be an EX-MT, next week it might be a VG-EX, and the week after that it may show signs of trimming. We're sorry, we wish we could be more accurate, but we don't really know." If collectors looked at these grades as merely estimates of a general range of condition, they wouldn't obsess over the half grade bumps, and would rarely if ever resubmit their cards.

With many collectors there is far too much emphasis on the label. The advent of the set registry has been most responsible for this. If anyone cares about my opinion, I say it's time to get back to the roots of the hobby: the card, and not the slab. If you must have cards graded, fine, I'm all for it. Just learn to put it all in perspective.

Ironically, third party grading got its start as a means to AUTHENTICATE cards amidst a wave of card doctoring. Now, while of course it does a lot of good things, it also (in my opinion) has become the means for card doctors to get very rich.

[Al C.risafulli]

It's the number on the label that needs to be reassessed. When you get a card back that's graded, for example, PSA 5, what that really means is: "it's an Excellent today, but tomorrow it may be an EX-MT, next week it might be a VG-EX, and the week after that it may show signs of trimming. We're sorry, we wish we could be more accurate, but we don't really know."

Barry, you know I love you, but I'm in such disagreement with this statement that I feel compelled to chime in.

To me, the number on the label is an absolutely essential component of this, and one that has made it much, much easier for me to feel comfortable buying cards - even when condition is unimportant to me.

Before third party grading, I needed to trust that the person who was actually selling me the card was going to be honest about its condition. The person who was trying to get as much money as possible for the card was also the person who was going to tell me what condition it was in. And I needed to trust that he wasn't going to be just the tiniest bit liberal about his assessment of the corners, maybe overlook a hairline wrinkle in a tough-to-see place in hopes that I'd miss it too.

I also needed to trust that the seller was going to have a similar set of standards than me when it came to some of the more subjective attributes of a card. Centering, for instance - I've seen people call a card "Mint" when the centering was 90/10. And they weren't being dishonest, they just didn't consider centering to be important.

It's also not as if this was only a concern when I was purchasing cards through the mail - it was a concern when the dealer was standing right in front of me! I remember being at a store called Sports Nostalgia, on Route 17 in Paramus, NJ, and looking at a 1949 Bowman Johnny Vander Meer. The guy behind the counter was trying his damndest to convince me that the card was MINT. Today, we'd grade that card VG-EX at best. I was a 10-year-old kid, and I laughed at the dealer's ridiculous grading, even then.

Third party grading makes this so much more objective. And yes, it creates opportunities for monkeying around, and playing the crack-and-resubmit game, and grade shopping based on which company is tougher on corners, etc. But when that card gets in a slab, all the weird, subjective over and undergrading becomes so much less of an issue.

When I'm buying a raw card, I always have to contend with the possibility that the seller is going to describe the card as EX-MT, and when I get it, it's going to have a pencil mark, or a pinhole, or VG corners. Then I need to deal with the hassle of arguing over grading in hopes of getting a refund - and if I lose the argument, I'm out a bunch of money.

Once there's a number on a flip, the possibility of gross overgrading gets reduced dramatically.

The inconsistency that you refer to as "we don't really know," to me, is simply the result of the infinite number of possible combinations of things that could happen on any given card, and the grader's interpretation of all those things. That's why a good grading company will be happy to review grades you're unhappy with, and tell you why they arrived at their conclusion. It's also why a good grading company will occasionally decide that they got it wrong the first time.

And those people who insist on insulting people who like to collect graded cards are just silly.

-Al

[ullmandds]

Al...I bought my first T cards at hall's nostalgia...I wish stores like that still existed!

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Barry, you know I love you, but I'm in such disagreement with this statement that I feel compelled to chime in.

To me, the number on the label is an absolutely essential component of this, and one that has made it much, much easier for me to feel comfortable buying cards - even when condition is unimportant to me.

Before third party grading, I needed to trust that the person who was actually selling me the card was going to be honest about its condition. The person who was trying to get as much money as possible for the card was also the person who was going to tell me what condition it was in. And I needed to trust that he wasn't going to be just the tiniest bit liberal about his assessment of the corners, maybe overlook a hairline wrinkle in a tough-to-see place in hopes that I'd miss it too.

I also needed to trust that the seller was going to have a similar set of standards than me when it came to some of the more subjective attributes of a card. Centering, for instance - I've seen people call a card "Mint" when the centering was 90/10. And they weren't being dishonest, they just didn't consider centering to be important.

It's also not as if this was only a concern when I was purchasing cards through the mail - it was a concern when the dealer was standing right in front of me! I remember being at a store called Sports Nostalgia, on Route 17 in Paramus, NJ, and looking at a 1949 Bowman Johnny Vander Meer. The guy behind the counter was trying his damndest to convince me that the card was MINT. Today, we'd grade that card VG-EX at best. I was a 10-year-old kid, and I laughed at the dealer's ridiculous grading, even then.

Third party grading makes this so much more objective. And yes, it creates opportunities for monkeying around, and playing the crack-and-resubmit game, and grade shopping based on which company is tougher on corners, etc. But when that card gets in a slab, all the weird, subjective over and undergrading becomes so much less of an issue.

When I'm buying a raw card, I always have to contend with the possibility that the seller is going to describe the card as EX-MT, and when I get it, it's going to have a pencil mark, or a pinhole, or VG corners. Then I need to deal with the hassle of arguing over grading in hopes of getting a refund - and if I lose the argument, I'm out a bunch of money.

Once there's a number on a flip, the possibility of gross overgrading gets reduced dramatically.

The inconsistency that you refer to as "we don't really know," to me, is simply the result of the infinite number of possible combinations of things that could happen on any given card, and the grader's interpretation of all those things. That's why a good grading company will be happy to review grades you're unhappy with, and tell you why they arrived at their conclusion. It's also why a good grading company will occasionally decide that they got it wrong the first time.

And those people who insist on insulting people who like to collect graded cards are just silly.

-Al

Well stated, Al. Especially your closing sentence.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

....blah blah blah And I needed to trust that he wasn't going to be just the tiniest bit liberal blah blah blah

-Al

Al hates liberals. Never thought I'd see the day.

[barrysloate]

Al, here's my take on your assessment: I would agree the numerical grades were extremely important if they really did signify some objective standard. But grading is so subjective that it is silly to pretend that a number represents something specific. The example I like to use is if someone submits a poem to a creative writing class and gets it back with a grade of say 92. What does that mean? How can you give a specific number to a poem? You can discuss its meaning, comment on the imagery, discuss its social implications- but you can't give it a number grade. That might work with a math or chemistry test, but it is meaningless with a poem.

That's why calling a card a 5, or a 6.5 (do we need the half grades, or do the grading companies need it?) signifies little to me. Al, I could tell you I liked you yesterday but I only like you 88% as much today. What does that mean?

Someone just told me a story that he sent a Topps card into PSA that he expected to get a 9. When it came back an 8 he decided to crack it out and resubmit. This time it came back a 7. He got angry, and sent it back again. This time it came back a 6! What does that tell you about the numbers? They hold very little meaning. There are loose standards within the company, and different standards between them.

If you feel that the number on the label helps you make a purchase, that's fine. But understand it doesn't tell you much specific about the card. It just gives you a ballpark idea. Sure, a 7 will always be better than a 3. But there are plenty of 5's that are better than some 5.5's. Grading doesn't let you get any more specific than that.

So I say if you like graded cards, and the number means something to you, let's put it in perspective. Let's just say the number gives you a general idea of what the card may look like, and that's all. Besides, if you resubmitted it there's a pretty good chance you will get a different number anyway.

And I never tell anyone it's wrong to collect slabbed cards. I'm just asking them to look at grading in a little different light. It's unfortunately not as accurate as it pretends to be.

[Al C.risafulli]

Barry, I wasn't referring to you in the last sentence in my post.

I probably have the most ridiculous example of crack-and-resubmit that there is in the hobby. And yes, we've all heard the stories. That's the problem - we don't hear about the 200-card submission where everything was pretty much right on the nose, we hear about the one card that seemed overgraded.

To me, if you tell me that you have a '38 Goudey Jimmy Foxx in SGC 84, I have a pretty good idea of what you have. I still want to see at least a scan of the card before I buy it, but I can be reasonably sure that it's not going to have any back damage or bad corners. That's what I'm looking for - a THIRD PARTY assessment of the card. I don't want YOU to tell me you've got a near mint '38 Foxx; I want someone else - someone who reviews cards all day long - to say it.

My first job was in customer service. I took complaints all day. After working at that company for a year, I really thought it must be the worst company on earth, because everyone complained, all day. It took someone else to explain to me that the company was fine, we had millions of customers, and a tiny fraction complained - but I never took calls from people who were just calling to compliment the service. That wasn't my job.

These boards are similar. Nobody posts scans and says "Hey, I just submitted this card for grading and it's properly graded." All you see is the card with the bad label, the one that's overgraded, the person complaining that they didn't agree with the grading company. It's easy to start to feel like they never get anything right. It's easy to forget that there are literally millions of cards out there in PSA and SGC holders where the card is graded to their published standards.

-Al

[barrysloate]

Well that's something I do agree with- only the complaints get posted, and seldom the good news stories. Let me try to state my position a different way:

I'm going to start my own grading service called BGC (Barry's Grading Company) and I'm going to do things a little differently. Instead of assigning numerical grades, I'm just going to use NR MT, EX, VG-EX, VG, GD, FR, and PR as my grades. My belief is the numbers are not precise, they can be easily changed, so my assessments are really no less accurate than anyone else's. How do you think my company would do?

I can tell you right now: I'd be out of business before I got off the ground. That's because the hobby obsesses over these numbers, even if they are not as accurate as they hope to be. If I come up to the plate ten times and get three hits, I'm batting .300. No matter how many times you review it it will never be .290 and it will never be .310. That's a fact, and batting average is an objective science.

Grading is not. It's way too subjective to pretend that a specific number tells anything more than a ballpark story about what the card really looks like. My descriptive grades probably tell the same story. But the market would reject me from day one.

That's my point. I'm not against having a third party with some level of expertise examine a card and give a professional opinion, I'm just fed up with the silliness of these numbers. One guy has a set that averages 6.52, and the other guy has a 6.48. Can you tell me who has the better set? I wouldn't have a clue. Maybe the guy with the 6.48 really has the better set, and the other guy's is overgraded. Nobody knows for sure, as the numbers are meaningless.

What the numbers really do is keep the graders in business, and keep the resubmissions coming in at a brisk pace. The hobby would be alive and well without them.

[benjulmag]

I agree that third party grading provides a useful service in giving a prospective purchaser more assurance both as to the authenticity of the card and its overall condtiion. The problem is that many collectors put too much stock in what the grading company says. To me a graded card means there is less likelihood the card is altered than if it was raw, and that the card's true condition does not materially differ from the grade on the slab. But there is still always the chance the grading company got it wrong, and that a subsequent resubmission could result in a different outcome. So I guess it's a matter of perception. I choose to look at third party grading as an overall improvement over relying exclusively on the seller's assessment of the condition. But it is and always will be far from perfect and riddled with subjectivity, and any grading company, if presented a card anew, is very apt the second time to give it a different grade. I wonder if the day will come when the market recognizes this and stops putting such disparate values on essentially identically-looking cards but with different grades. And, collectors should understand that in regard to issues of authenticity/alteration, third party grading can never be a complete substitute for the card's provenance.

[jmk59]

The problem with grading is that, while it can be better than what we had before grading, it isn't perfect.

There are posts here every so often about a card that was misgraded by a 3PG. To Al's point, big misses happen so infrequently that some consider it thread-worthy. Can you imagine how many there would be if there were no 3PG's and threads were about "That Lousy ^$#! Dealer Told Me This Was Ex-Mt!!!!" It would be every day or every hour.

Grading generally aligns descriptions and conditions a lot more closely than having individual seller having his own way of making that scale. This is especially important because the internet allows for many, many more inexperienced sellers and buyers to participate in the hobby. From a buyer standpoint, 3PG gets you fairly close in terms of expectations. From a seller standpoint, it eliminates a lot of contention and possibly loss of reputation based on vocal and too-demanding buyers. This is especially important with today's instant broadcast capability by any individual - message boards, blogs, etc. So in that sense it's good to have grading available in the hobby.

But generally aligning expectations is not the same thing as hanging your hat (and wallet) on minute differences of fractional grades. The system is not that accurate. The fact that the hobby attached huge dollars to these small, subjective differences - leading to things like the crack and resubmit game - is what makes the imperfect part of the grading system just scream.

In the end, it should be a matter of using the grading system for what it is good at while not crossing over into the areas of instability. If everyone simply used grading as a commercial assist for card description, it would not be as controversial. But many people (including and maybe especially sellers) use it as a pinpoint tool to stratify significant differences in value, and crossing into that known imperfection of the grading system causes much of the problem.

And the poetry analogy is good but needs a tweak. The comparison as described by Barry only works if the card grading system was based only on "what do you think of it". If this were the case, examples of grades not matching eye appeal - like Wonka's examples - wouldn't exist.

If the poetry grading had some guidelines, it would be more like card grading. Like high grades for great imagery, effective choice of form, use of metaphor, whatever. And the lower grades would be reserved for things like misspellings, incomplete or the kinds of things that college kids come up with after too many beers. :-)!

There would still be some "wobble" among adjacent grades that would have some subjectivity, but the general range of grade would be significantly less subjective than the personal, individual opinion of the grader.

Which is about what we have now for cards!

J


ETA - from the "great minds think alike" category - Barry and I must have been typing at the same time!

[lharri3600]

the issue here is not RAW cards. the issue here are cards that have already been "GRADED". this subjective thing is a bunch of junk. i have a folder with scans and i ask how did that card grade this or that. i've submitted cards for cross over, asked for a certain grade, and guess what? nope. the excuse i got is this,"it's hard for graders to look at a card in a case to determine a grade". my question (unanswered by the way) was if that's the case, why offer that service?

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Barry, I wasn't referring to you in the last sentence in my post.

I probably have the most ridiculous example of crack-and-resubmit that there is in the hobby. And yes, we've all heard the stories. That's the problem - we don't hear about the 200-card submission where everything was pretty much right on the nose, we hear about the one card that seemed overgraded.

To me, if you tell me that you have a '38 Goudey Jimmy Foxx in SGC 84, I have a pretty good idea of what you have. I still want to see at least a scan of the card before I buy it, but I can be reasonably sure that it's not going to have any back damage or bad corners. That's what I'm looking for - a THIRD PARTY assessment of the card. I don't want YOU to tell me you've got a near mint '38 Foxx; I want someone else - someone who reviews cards all day long - to say it.

My first job was in customer service. I took complaints all day. After working at that company for a year, I really thought it must be the worst company on earth, because everyone complained, all day. It took someone else to explain to me that the company was fine, we had millions of customers, and a tiny fraction complained - but I never took calls from people who were just calling to compliment the service. That wasn't my job.

These boards are similar. Nobody posts scans and says "Hey, I just submitted this card for grading and it's properly graded." All you see is the card with the bad label, the one that's overgraded, the person complaining that they didn't agree with the grading company. It's easy to start to feel like they never get anything right. It's easy to forget that there are literally millions of cards out there in PSA and SGC holders where the card is graded to their published standards.

-Al

[sportscardtheory]

This is why I buy already-graded cards and rarely submit my own. Let others go through the hassles.