VERY VERY disgusted with PSA--you won't believe it!!

[calvindog]

Bill, this is a hilarious situation (though I'm sure you're not laughing). If what happened to you does not exemplify this insanity of third party grading, I don't know what does.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

If what happened to you does not exemplify this insanity of third party grading, I don't know what does.

Agreed. I don't bother sending in cards I intend to keep any more unless I feel the card would benefit from being protected in a holder. Resale is another matter; in that situation it doesn't really matter whether grading adds value as long as the right buyers believe it does.

[barrysloate]

I think we need to look at third party grading in a different light.

They provide a great service by examining a card for trimming and alterations. Assuming they get it right, that's a great thing. And if you like your cards protected in a holder, they provide a nifty one for sure.

It's the number on the label that needs to be reassessed. When you get a card back that's graded, for example, PSA 5, what that really means is: "it's an Excellent today, but tomorrow it may be an EX-MT, next week it might be a VG-EX, and the week after that it may show signs of trimming. We're sorry, we wish we could be more accurate, but we don't really know." If collectors looked at these grades as merely estimates of a general range of condition, they wouldn't obsess over the half grade bumps, and would rarely if ever resubmit their cards.

With many collectors there is far too much emphasis on the label. The advent of the set registry has been most responsible for this. If anyone cares about my opinion, I say it's time to get back to the roots of the hobby: the card, and not the slab. If you must have cards graded, fine, I'm all for it. Just learn to put it all in perspective.

[pgellis]

My 2 cents.....

Because most cards nowadays are purchased through the internet, then graded card makes you feel a little better in knowing that you are paying for what you are going to get on the other end.

I know that I have purchased a few T206s that were raw and a few things have happened:

1. The card looked good on eBay and ended up being "way" trimmed.

2. The card looked really, really good on eBay and once submitted, was told that it was "Trimmed" by a gradind company.

I wish I could go to only raw with my collection, but because 99% of my collection has been purchased off of the internet, I must rely on grading companies.

[oldjudge]

This just goes to prove again (I forget what the first time was) that Pro is the best grading company. You crack out a "10" and resubmit it and it will come back a "10". That's consistency!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think we need to look at third party grading in a different light.

They provide a great service by examining a card for trimming and alterations. Assuming they get it right, that's a great thing. And if you like your cards protected in a holder, they provide a nifty one for sure.

It's the number on the label that needs to be reassessed. When you get a card back that's graded, for example, PSA 5, what that really means is: "it's an Excellent today, but tomorrow it may be an EX-MT, next week it might be a VG-EX, and the week after that it may show signs of trimming. We're sorry, we wish we could be more accurate, but we don't really know." If collectors looked at these grades as merely estimates of a general range of condition, they wouldn't obsess over the half grade bumps, and would rarely if ever resubmit their cards.

With many collectors there is far too much emphasis on the label. The advent of the set registry has been most responsible for this. If anyone cares about my opinion, I say it's time to get back to the roots of the hobby: the card, and not the slab. If you must have cards graded, fine, I'm all for it. Just learn to put it all in perspective.

Ironically, third party grading got its start as a means to AUTHENTICATE cards amidst a wave of card doctoring. Now, while of course it does a lot of good things, it also (in my opinion) has become the means for card doctors to get very rich.

[Al C.risafulli]

It's the number on the label that needs to be reassessed. When you get a card back that's graded, for example, PSA 5, what that really means is: "it's an Excellent today, but tomorrow it may be an EX-MT, next week it might be a VG-EX, and the week after that it may show signs of trimming. We're sorry, we wish we could be more accurate, but we don't really know."

Barry, you know I love you, but I'm in such disagreement with this statement that I feel compelled to chime in.

To me, the number on the label is an absolutely essential component of this, and one that has made it much, much easier for me to feel comfortable buying cards - even when condition is unimportant to me.

Before third party grading, I needed to trust that the person who was actually selling me the card was going to be honest about its condition. The person who was trying to get as much money as possible for the card was also the person who was going to tell me what condition it was in. And I needed to trust that he wasn't going to be just the tiniest bit liberal about his assessment of the corners, maybe overlook a hairline wrinkle in a tough-to-see place in hopes that I'd miss it too.

I also needed to trust that the seller was going to have a similar set of standards than me when it came to some of the more subjective attributes of a card. Centering, for instance - I've seen people call a card "Mint" when the centering was 90/10. And they weren't being dishonest, they just didn't consider centering to be important.

It's also not as if this was only a concern when I was purchasing cards through the mail - it was a concern when the dealer was standing right in front of me! I remember being at a store called Sports Nostalgia, on Route 17 in Paramus, NJ, and looking at a 1949 Bowman Johnny Vander Meer. The guy behind the counter was trying his damndest to convince me that the card was MINT. Today, we'd grade that card VG-EX at best. I was a 10-year-old kid, and I laughed at the dealer's ridiculous grading, even then.

Third party grading makes this so much more objective. And yes, it creates opportunities for monkeying around, and playing the crack-and-resubmit game, and grade shopping based on which company is tougher on corners, etc. But when that card gets in a slab, all the weird, subjective over and undergrading becomes so much less of an issue.

When I'm buying a raw card, I always have to contend with the possibility that the seller is going to describe the card as EX-MT, and when I get it, it's going to have a pencil mark, or a pinhole, or VG corners. Then I need to deal with the hassle of arguing over grading in hopes of getting a refund - and if I lose the argument, I'm out a bunch of money.

Once there's a number on a flip, the possibility of gross overgrading gets reduced dramatically.

The inconsistency that you refer to as "we don't really know," to me, is simply the result of the infinite number of possible combinations of things that could happen on any given card, and the grader's interpretation of all those things. That's why a good grading company will be happy to review grades you're unhappy with, and tell you why they arrived at their conclusion. It's also why a good grading company will occasionally decide that they got it wrong the first time.

And those people who insist on insulting people who like to collect graded cards are just silly.

-Al

[ullmandds]

Al...I bought my first T cards at hall's nostalgia...I wish stores like that still existed!

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Barry, you know I love you, but I'm in such disagreement with this statement that I feel compelled to chime in.

To me, the number on the label is an absolutely essential component of this, and one that has made it much, much easier for me to feel comfortable buying cards - even when condition is unimportant to me.

Before third party grading, I needed to trust that the person who was actually selling me the card was going to be honest about its condition. The person who was trying to get as much money as possible for the card was also the person who was going to tell me what condition it was in. And I needed to trust that he wasn't going to be just the tiniest bit liberal about his assessment of the corners, maybe overlook a hairline wrinkle in a tough-to-see place in hopes that I'd miss it too.

I also needed to trust that the seller was going to have a similar set of standards than me when it came to some of the more subjective attributes of a card. Centering, for instance - I've seen people call a card "Mint" when the centering was 90/10. And they weren't being dishonest, they just didn't consider centering to be important.

It's also not as if this was only a concern when I was purchasing cards through the mail - it was a concern when the dealer was standing right in front of me! I remember being at a store called Sports Nostalgia, on Route 17 in Paramus, NJ, and looking at a 1949 Bowman Johnny Vander Meer. The guy behind the counter was trying his damndest to convince me that the card was MINT. Today, we'd grade that card VG-EX at best. I was a 10-year-old kid, and I laughed at the dealer's ridiculous grading, even then.

Third party grading makes this so much more objective. And yes, it creates opportunities for monkeying around, and playing the crack-and-resubmit game, and grade shopping based on which company is tougher on corners, etc. But when that card gets in a slab, all the weird, subjective over and undergrading becomes so much less of an issue.

When I'm buying a raw card, I always have to contend with the possibility that the seller is going to describe the card as EX-MT, and when I get it, it's going to have a pencil mark, or a pinhole, or VG corners. Then I need to deal with the hassle of arguing over grading in hopes of getting a refund - and if I lose the argument, I'm out a bunch of money.

Once there's a number on a flip, the possibility of gross overgrading gets reduced dramatically.

The inconsistency that you refer to as "we don't really know," to me, is simply the result of the infinite number of possible combinations of things that could happen on any given card, and the grader's interpretation of all those things. That's why a good grading company will be happy to review grades you're unhappy with, and tell you why they arrived at their conclusion. It's also why a good grading company will occasionally decide that they got it wrong the first time.

And those people who insist on insulting people who like to collect graded cards are just silly.

-Al

Well stated, Al. Especially your closing sentence.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

....blah blah blah And I needed to trust that he wasn't going to be just the tiniest bit liberal blah blah blah

-Al

Al hates liberals. Never thought I'd see the day.

[barrysloate]

Al, here's my take on your assessment: I would agree the numerical grades were extremely important if they really did signify some objective standard. But grading is so subjective that it is silly to pretend that a number represents something specific. The example I like to use is if someone submits a poem to a creative writing class and gets it back with a grade of say 92. What does that mean? How can you give a specific number to a poem? You can discuss its meaning, comment on the imagery, discuss its social implications- but you can't give it a number grade. That might work with a math or chemistry test, but it is meaningless with a poem.

That's why calling a card a 5, or a 6.5 (do we need the half grades, or do the grading companies need it?) signifies little to me. Al, I could tell you I liked you yesterday but I only like you 88% as much today. What does that mean?

Someone just told me a story that he sent a Topps card into PSA that he expected to get a 9. When it came back an 8 he decided to crack it out and resubmit. This time it came back a 7. He got angry, and sent it back again. This time it came back a 6! What does that tell you about the numbers? They hold very little meaning. There are loose standards within the company, and different standards between them.

If you feel that the number on the label helps you make a purchase, that's fine. But understand it doesn't tell you much specific about the card. It just gives you a ballpark idea. Sure, a 7 will always be better than a 3. But there are plenty of 5's that are better than some 5.5's. Grading doesn't let you get any more specific than that.

So I say if you like graded cards, and the number means something to you, let's put it in perspective. Let's just say the number gives you a general idea of what the card may look like, and that's all. Besides, if you resubmitted it there's a pretty good chance you will get a different number anyway.

And I never tell anyone it's wrong to collect slabbed cards. I'm just asking them to look at grading in a little different light. It's unfortunately not as accurate as it pretends to be.

[Al C.risafulli]

Barry, I wasn't referring to you in the last sentence in my post.

I probably have the most ridiculous example of crack-and-resubmit that there is in the hobby. And yes, we've all heard the stories. That's the problem - we don't hear about the 200-card submission where everything was pretty much right on the nose, we hear about the one card that seemed overgraded.

To me, if you tell me that you have a '38 Goudey Jimmy Foxx in SGC 84, I have a pretty good idea of what you have. I still want to see at least a scan of the card before I buy it, but I can be reasonably sure that it's not going to have any back damage or bad corners. That's what I'm looking for - a THIRD PARTY assessment of the card. I don't want YOU to tell me you've got a near mint '38 Foxx; I want someone else - someone who reviews cards all day long - to say it.

My first job was in customer service. I took complaints all day. After working at that company for a year, I really thought it must be the worst company on earth, because everyone complained, all day. It took someone else to explain to me that the company was fine, we had millions of customers, and a tiny fraction complained - but I never took calls from people who were just calling to compliment the service. That wasn't my job.

These boards are similar. Nobody posts scans and says "Hey, I just submitted this card for grading and it's properly graded." All you see is the card with the bad label, the one that's overgraded, the person complaining that they didn't agree with the grading company. It's easy to start to feel like they never get anything right. It's easy to forget that there are literally millions of cards out there in PSA and SGC holders where the card is graded to their published standards.

-Al

[sportscardtheory]

This is why I buy already-graded cards and rarely submit my own. Let others go through the hassles.