VERY VERY disgusted with PSA--you won't believe it!!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by lharri3600

my question (unanswered by the way) was if that's the case, why offer that service?

MONEY. It is ALL about money. Grading did not start up because of the pervasiveness of card doctors--the first card PSA ever graded was not only doctored, it was it known to be doctored by at least one of the graders who looked at it for PSA--it started up because someone had an idea for making money on the fears of collectors and stoked that fire with a strong advertising campaign aimed at collectors. The half-grade did not arise from collectors clamoring for it--high-end examples of the card in a grade were long term gripes about PSA--it arose when PSA's management decided it could make MONEY on the resubmits. Why else would the rules not downgrade a card, only bump it? Not for accuracy, certainly. But as a marketing tool for the resubmission service what better campaign could you have than to guarantee that for a modest fee the card owner might make out like a bandit or would at worst end up precisely where he was before?

Look, it is all about perceptions. TPG doesn't change the cards themselves, it merely changes the perceptions of the buyers and sellers. It's BS, but the more ridiculous it gets the more the target audience buys into it, and the more they buy into it the more money the TPG service makes. And no matter how stinky the popourri the people who want to believe keep spending. Years ago I wrote an article for VCBC proving that the SMR was nothing more than a tout sheet for the service that simply made up prices on cards PSA had never graded and falsely showed them to be moving up when the PSA-graded cards didn't even exist. The collective response was "yes, but" because everyone who counted (dealers) loved the ability to make money marketing the idea that PSA cards were an investment that handed out great returns. They used the SMR to price cards and sell cards, and the fantasy became real over time as buyers fell for the conceit and deals were made on cards with the SMR's phoney-baloney pricing as an initial baseline. Now, after a decade, PSA can cite real examples of sales and the whole thing becomes a self-perpetuating thing, just like the initial insert card venture fed on itself and became the silly three-figure packs of today.

I'm no purist; I play all the games too. I buy raw cards and submit for high grades, cross over cards, crack and resend cards, and occasionally submit already graded cards for review. It is all about the Benjamins for me. I think the whole thing is stupid but just like stocks it doesn't really matter what I think of the true quality is as long as it can be sold to the next sucker down the line. How else besides TPG could I take a raw card that cost me five bucks and turn it into a $350 product?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I'm no purist; I play all the games too. I buy raw cards and submit for high grades, cross over cards, crack and resend cards, and occasionally submit already graded cards for review. It is all about the Benjamins for me. I think the whole thing is stupid but just like stocks it doesn't really matter what I think of the true quality is as long as it can be sold to the next sucker down the line. How else besides TPG could I take a raw card that cost me five bucks and turn it into a $350 product?

Sometimes I wish I was more on the ball like this. I remember years ago I used to pick up absolutely pristine Joe Louis and Bobby Jones cards from The London Cigarette Card Company for the price of common cards from the same set.

Eventually I'd flip them raw and be happy when I made a few bucks on them.

Had some great runs of Leaf Knockout cards I sold off raw. Red Cross boxers in great condition and some wonderful Old Judge boxers you're aware of that I think I did great on, but wonder how they might have done in slabs.

Just never had the ambition to play the game I guess. I even have a small box full of cards set aside marked "Someday" on them. Meaning someday I'll send them in for grading................someday.

[tedzan]

I've read thru every post in this thread and I'll cite the classic scenario of the July 8, 1958 Senate Anti-Trust hearings
where Casey Stengel held court for hours with his classic "Stengelese".

After which, Senator Kefauver thanked Casey Stengel. Then Kefauver addressed Mickey Mantle......
" do you have any observations with reference to the applicability of the antitrust laws to baseball ? "

Mickey Mantle responded......" My views are about the same as Casey's "

The majority of the people in the Hearing room broke out in a loud laughter.


Similarly, what ever Barry Sloate has said in his various posts here, I totally agree with. And, ESPECIALLY this one:

'What the numbers really do is keep the graders in business, and keep the resubmissions coming in at a brisk pace.
The hobby would be alive and well without them."

Hey guys, these Grading Company's have duped you....and the sad fact is that you have not realized this.

But, unlike that scenario 52 years ago......nobody is laughing !


T-Rex TED

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry, Ted et al., you make good points, but in a market economy, things that are bad ideas usually fail, and grading is thriving. The simple explanation that we all have been fooled is not, to me in any case, persuasive.

[tedzan]

For the moment, you are absolutely correct.

But, regarding the macro-economics of this. I'm afraid the future bodes ill. It's not only our country's failing economic
situation; but, it is compounded by the unfortunate fact that there is NO growth in this hobby. Kid's don't collect BB
cards like we did years ago. Therefore, where are the new buyers going to come from 5-10 years from now ?

The greedy BB card company's have priced wax packs out of what used to be a growing market. The Grading industry
has contributed to escalating values in BB cards that will be "unsustainable" (I hate that overused word) with respect
to this deterioating economy.


TED Z

[Al C.risafulli]

I agree. I don't feel duped at all.

In fact, I can honestly say that if it weren't for all the advantages offered by third-party grading and authentication, I would never have purchased two-thirds of the things in my collection.

I like to think of myself as an educated buyer, not someone who's been duped. Ted, we get along really well, but if I hold credence in something you don't, that does not make me duped by the grading company's numbers any more than it makes you duped by the folks that choose to grade by their own arbitrary criteria. It's just two different opinions on an issue that shouldn't create as much animosity as it does among people that don't value the 3PG.

Seriously. I rarely read people who collect graded cards tossing insults at those who don't. Why is it that I see it happen so frequently the other way around? If it's really that important to keep the cards raw, just break 'em out of their holders, stick 'em in your binder and be happy with your collection. Why the need to denigrate those who like to have them graded?

-Al

[teetwoohsix]

I'll tell you why I prefer graded cards.When I was still fairly new (still am,in a sense) at collecting T206 cards,I bought a raw Burns T206 off of a guy on ebay.He described it as NM-MT,and provided front and back scans.To me,it looked V/G-E/X,and I won it for a decent price.Sent it to SGC,and it graded a 50,I couldn't have been happier.

Awhile later,same seller put up this Jake Atz T206,raw,with I remember correctly,his own grade of V/G-EX-and only a scan of the front.

I am at fault for not asking to see the back scan up front,but figured I had a good transaction with him before,and the front looked maybe V/G,so I bid and won for I think around the $20.00 range.

I sent an email after I had won about the back,asked if there was any paper loss or back damage.His reply was-no,there's no paper loss,some parts are "a little light".I got the card,and here are the pictures.The first is of the front,second is of the back,and third is how it looks now,after scraping all the crap off of the back.

I know I am at fault for not doing my due dilligence,but some sellers out there are dirty,and buying graded cards saves people from dealing with crap like this.Especially when you are new to the hobby.I love my cards graded-especially by SGC.

[theuclakid]

I echo what Ted and Barry have always said (correct me if I am wrong) that third party grading was only needed for the authenticating of a card to ensure as humanly possible that a card is real/authentic and not tampered with...and nothing more....most collectors and sellers that I have known for these many years could tell the difference between an ex, exmt and nrmt card.....grading is not an exact science and way too subjective...no revelation here...when I bought raw cards exclusively, I was only concerned with the authenticity and that the card was not altered, trimmed etc...I always felt I could determine (within the established hobby standards) an accurate grade for a raw card as well as anyone once the authentication hurdle was satisfied...the established value and negotiated selling price should be the only real question....from day 1, cards should have been encapsulated with a big A for authenticated and nothing more...a lot of these grading nightmares that have occurred to most of us would have gone away....thanks...Bruce Perry

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I don't feel duped at all.

In fact, I can honestly say that if it weren't for all the advantages offered by third-party grading and authentication, I would never have purchased two-thirds of the things in my collection.

Agreed. Moreover, unless cash is of no concern for you, it would be unbelievably stupid to spend a lot of money on a single raw card without having the protection provided in the current market by 3PG -- unless the price paid was so much less than the graded market for that card in its anticipated condition.

I have 3 times spent more than $5,000 on a single card. There is no chance I'm doing that unless SGC or PSA was holding that card first.

Having said this, I am the proud owner of 200+ raw T206 cards that I currently have no plan to have graded. Not one of them cost me over $25 however.

[barrysloate]

Joann makes a point that I've always maintained, that it is impossible to have so many grades and be able to pinpoint each card to its exact grade every time. Part of why this works is the perception that the graders can do it. If your card comes back 6.5 you assume the grader has put an incredible amount of time and care into ascertaining this precise number. But it isn't because if you resubmit it, the next time it might be a 6 or 7. In that respect collectors have been duped into accepting a level of precision that doesn't actually exist.

Now Peter makes a good point too, and that is grading is thriving. I guess there are a few reasons. First, collectors are extremely concerned about card altering and they want an impartial expert to examine each and every card to determine whether or not it is original as issued. And for me this is the most important service the graders provide. Second, there is something about the numerical system that greatly appeals to collectors. I guess we all like to have some kind of certainty in our lives, especially where a lot of money is involved. But I repeat that it is only a perceived precision. I respect that the graders do have skills and try to get it right every time, but it is simply impossible for the human eye to detect so many minute levels of progression within the grading system. In that respect, the graders have pulled one over on us. They have collectors believing that they are able to take a subjective discipline and make it extremely precise. Kudos to them for pulling this off.

And one final thought: wouldn't collectors like to learn how to grade cards themselves? Once a third party has checked a card for doctoring, is it really that difficult for any experienced collector to learn how to grade? Maybe a newbie doesn't have the confidence level and needs the assistance of an expert. That's fine, and a worthy service. But learning to grade, IMO, is part of the fun and challenge of the hobby. Frankly, after almost thirty years of doing this I think I could do it as well as the pros. But I gave it up a long time ago, because nobody will take my word over what is printed on the slab.