Rebacked T206's....heck NO....perhaps, they are Re-Fronted DRUM, HINDU cards ?

[teetwoohsix]

It's obvious by looking at Kevin's examples that these type of alterations can and have been done,but I'm not too convinced that just anyone could pull off a "re-fronting" job that would fool all graders and collectors.There is no way,unless you are a pro like Kevin,that you could "build" an example that could fool everyone,IMO.I would guess there may be a handful of people who could do an "undetectable" job-my point is that I do not think it's as easy to do as it sounds,that's all.

I admit,it is scary-but I would be a little more leary if I were buying these ultra rare,one of a few known,high dollar,bionic back cards........

Clayton

[barrysloate]

It may not be easy, but that wouldn't stop somebody from learning the skills. It's not easy to be a doctor, but people still go to medical school and ultimately practice medicine.

There is so much money to be made altering baseball cards that you can be sure many people are doing it. And while I agree not all these concoctions will get past graders, enough will. If only 25% of all altered cards got slabbed it would still be a very lucrative business.

[teetwoohsix]

Great point Barry-agreed.

I was dumbfounded at an earlier post where Kevin said he offered to show PSA graders a few "tips",free of charge,and was declined!!

Clayton

[T206DK]

I think these types of alterations can be done by anyone with the time and materials. I am going to try to do my own re-fronting and see how it turns out.

[FUBAR]

Re-fronting, re-backing, how about re-valuating.. its the ole six of one, half a dozen of the other ... doesn't matter what you call it....

why would someone do this?? well Kevin claims it takes 8 hours to do this properly... anyone else here make 100k in 8 hours??? or even 1 k in eight hours?? there is your answer!

[teetwoohsix]

The sad part,other than these cards being created to decieve people,is that two great cards (HOF'er front + rare,uncommon back) are being destoyed to make one fake franken-card.............

[onlychild]

There is no way,unless you are a pro like Kevin,that you could "build" an example that could fool everyone,IMO.

HA! I'm the village idiot, so I imagine there are plenty more out there that can do this. I just happened to stumble upon the technique by accident while doing some experiments that many would consider unthinkable.

I've always been under the impression that cards are just a single piece of cardboard with ink...and if it was done once it could be done again.

I was dumbfounded at an earlier post where Kevin said he offered to show PSA graders a few "tips",free of charge,and was declined!!

Yep, it was free and I only live about 30 miles away. I wasn't planning on showing them tips, I was going to give them step by step instructions along with the formulas and how to's. Then they would know exactly what to look for, since it's not always black and white. Was also going show them security concerns with their flips, which as predicted, is now a big problem.

[T206DK]

We'll see how my attempts turn out. I've already done the color removal experiments that Kevin has tried on his website and they have worked to varying degrees. I did that about 4 -5 years ago just out of curiousity. I don't consider myself a card doctor at all, but I do have some experience in restoring historical documents and things of that nature. I have just transferred the knowledge to baseball cards.
the cards I use would not be considered keepers by most, and I've never tried to sneak anything by a grading company or sell to anyone.

[tedzan]

Dave, regarding your......
"I think these types of alterations can be done by anyone with the time and materials. I am going to try to do
my own re-fronting and see how it turns out."

Here's my suggestion to you....re-front a UZIT back with a Red Cobb....it's an impossible F/B combo, but does
that really matter anymore ?


Anyhow, here's my example......





..Hey guys, we need a laugh and I thought this card might evoke it....after all, Cobb is quoted as saying....

"Baseball was like War"..


TED Z

[T206Collector]

...anyone has to worry about are the ones that can be detected.

While even the best forgeries have the propensity to harm the hobby in a variety of ways, threads like this, which purport to (and do) educate, have their own damaging effect on the hobby in that they have the ability to disgust collectors so much that they might choose a different hobby.

What's worse -- a truly undetectable forgery; or a thread about how the cards we currently own might not be what we think they are?

Just something worth thinking about. If you could push a button and 50% of the cards in your collection would suddenly be worthless while the other 50% of the cards would be 100% guaranteed unaltered, would you push it?

[T206Collector]

Why is this Plank...

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=14790

...already bid up higher than this SGC 30?

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13374

To me, the first one is a worthless fake, too. But evidently there is a market for this stuff -- even when it is disclosed.

[T206DK]

I think it's natural to want to figure something out after you've seen or heard of another person trying it. Not everyone does it, but some do. I think the thing that is disturbing to me as a collector is the fact that 3rd party graders may have graded a lot of altered cards. Now those 3rd party graded cards are selling for well more than their ungraded counterparts are.
The newbies that may read threads like this may be turned off, but I bet it's the flipper/investor/speculators that are really troubled when they see pics like Kevin's and read info about how these alterations are done. If a few of them are turned off of cards and go delve into coins or something else I could care less. I think the investor /speculators have ruined some of the fun of collecting. Especially for guys who can't shell out thousands of dollars every week for cards.

[iggyman]

[quote=t206collector;803201
while even the best forgeries have the propensity to harm the hobby in a variety of ways, threads like this, which purport to (and do) educate, have their own damaging effect on the hobby in that they have the ability to disgust collectors so much that they might choose a different hobby.

What's worse -- a truly undetectable forgery; or a thread about how the cards we currently own might not be what we think they are?[/quote]


monkees2.jpg

[onlychild]

We'll see how my attempts turn out. I've already done the color removal experiments that Kevin has tried on his website and they have worked to varying degrees. I did that about 4 -5 years ago just out of curiousity. I don't consider myself a card doctor at all, but I do have some experience in restoring historical documents and things of that nature. I have just transferred the knowledge to baseball cards.

Awesome, the more we learn the better.

As for Ted's idea...yikes that would expensive to attempt . How about a common with an upside down back? It's all relevant right?

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by onlychild

HA! I'm the village idiot, so I imagine there are plenty more out there that can do this. I just happened to stumble upon the technique by accident while doing some experiments that many would consider unthinkable.

I've always been under the impression that cards are just a single piece of cardboard with ink...and if it was done once it could be done again.



Yep, it was free and I only live about 30 miles away. I wasn't planning on showing them tips, I was going to give them step by step instructions along with the formulas and how to's. Then they would know exactly what to look for, since it's not always black and white. Was also going show them security concerns with their flips, which as predicted, is now a big problem.

cant PSA/SGC just go to your website?

just wondering, i looked at you site, amazing! if i was a deceitful, lying thief, i would LOVE YOUR SITE for the Info it gave me to be bad!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

If i was a deceitful, lying thief, i would LOVE YOUR SITE for the Info it gave me to be bad!

That's the flip side to education -- you educate the good guys and they learn how to avoid the bad guys; but then the bad guys also learn how to outsmart the good guys.

[FUBAR]

Well if you get good enough at being bad, you can at least get a job at Coach's Corner!

[onlychild]

cant PSA/SGC just go to your website?

just wondering, i looked at you site, amazing! if i was a deceitful, lying thief, i would LOVE YOUR SITE for the Info it gave me to be bad!

SGC and PSA would already know about these types of alterations. Just thought PSA would benefit from knowing how the some of the advanced techniques were done in detail. Both GAI and Beckett adjusted their security measures based on what info they were personally given.

Tough subject to write about. Give too much info and it becomes a learning tool. Not enough and they complain that it not enough, which is typically the case.

For the most part I just try to show the end results and some things to look for. There are far too many steps to complete almost each alteration that it requires more knowledge than what is supplied. For the most part, if you were a deceitful lying thief, there is "probably" not enough there that could turn you into a successful card doctor right away.

Kevin