Rebacked T206's....heck NO....perhaps, they are Re-Fronted DRUM, HINDU cards ?

[steve B]

Seems plausible to me.

In the late 70's there was a "craft" that involved making transparencies from printed matter. A bit of scotch tape or better yet packing tape, a bowl of water and a bit of rubbing to remove the paper and the transparency was done and ready to frame as a suncatcher. I did a couple 79 Topps commons and it was pretty easy.

Substitute some better plastic film, and an adhesive that can be easily removed from the ink after it's been readhered to a new card and it's pretty likely the process.

Prepping the card to provide a new back looks a bit tougher. The scraped surface would be obvious because it's not smooth. But I'm betting some simple chemicals would do the trick, leaving the smooth white cardboard surface.

Steve B

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by steve B

Seems plausible to me.

In the late 70's there was a "craft" that involved making transparencies from printed matter. A bit of scotch tape or better yet packing tape, a bowl of water and a bit of rubbing to remove the paper and the transparency was done and ready to frame as a suncatcher. I did a couple 79 Topps commons and it was pretty easy.

Substitute some better plastic film, and an adhesive that can be easily removed from the ink after it's been readhered to a new card and it's pretty likely the process.

Prepping the card to provide a new back looks a bit tougher. The scraped surface would be obvious because it's not smooth. But I'm betting some simple chemicals would do the trick, leaving the smooth white cardboard surface.

Steve B

That's extremely scary.

[cfc1909]

this may be too much information for certain people...
Don't want to take anything away fom your post but this is scary.

[onlychild]

Ted,

There is no debate necessary. You are absolutely correct, cards are refronted!

Not only t206's but 205's...or most other issues for that matter up until the 1980's. I believe I may have posted about the term some time back. Refronting should be the appropriate term used. I use rebacking on my website, since it is what most are familiar with. Here are a few examples of the ridiculously thin pics from my website:

http://www.alteredcards.com/gallery4.htm

The real trick is actually removing or lifting the entire picture. To complete it all takes so many steps it's almost crazy and requires a number of doctoring skills. Once done, it is virtually undetectable even by the most trained eye.

There are no seams to detect since there are no seams. Fractional picture layering on front, several surface wrinkles and/or tiny bumps when angled under a halogen are just a few things to look for.

Here is a finished product. A t205 pic lifted and placed on a t206 card that had the pic removed.



Ted....now armed with this info, you can go crazy with the accusations. This will be fun, since you now know it is not only plausible but probable and with merit.

A couple years back, I offered to take off work and train the "most senior" PSA graders on this and other alteration procedures at no cost. Joe refused and instead offered to let me take the grader test...oh well I tried.

*Side note to collectors - Please don't ask about any part of the procedure or send emails thinking I will tell anyone in secrecy. Ted, feel free to email questions, if it will help your cause.

Enjoy!

Kevin

[T206DK]

yes Ted, cards can be re-fronted. I have seen a card one of my collecting friends did for fun. It had an Art Fromme front and an Obak reverse. I have seen T206 cards carefully seperated front from back also, so it can be done. Glue formulations that can't be detected by graders are easy to come up with. sophisticated adhesives didn't hit the market until around WWII, so most "glues" were simple hide glues or plant based glues.

[T206DK]

that's amazing that Joe Orlando wouldn't let you teach the graders there. And you offered to do it gratis ! I don't understand that at all. you would think he would want his graders to be as knowledgeable as possible.

[tedzan]

I am really surprised that a T205 front can be removed intact. Thanks for posting the scan.

I guess there can be re-fronted T205's (especially a Cobb, Johnson, or a Matty); however,
do we know all the front/back combos that exist in this set....as we do with the T206's ?

Furthermore, does anyone really care ? ?


TED Z

[jp1216]

Kevin - wow that front/back combo (and picture) is scary. I hope the likes of SGC and PSA keep up with this stuff.
10 years from now - a book comes out - "How I took down Net54"... LOL
Author will write about selling/trading his 'authenticated' fakes to members to acquire the greatest collection.

[steve B]

The 205/206 is pretty impressive. I can guess at some of what would have to be done, but I won't. My earlier post was probably close enough.

And yes, it's pretty scary what a real restoration expert in any field can accomplish. There was an antique restoration place in Arlington Ma for a while that had some antiques in the window along with before pictures. How a vase went from a pile of shards and dust to looking like new was amazing.
The price was also amazing, but apparently the vase was worth it even restored. I think they marked the stuff as restored to avoid problems.

Any time the money gets above what the top quality fakery costs the fakes will be made. In any field.

The next step will be collecting the best ones. In stamps, there are some forgeries that sell for more than the real stamp.
http://www.glenstephens.com/snapril04.html

Steve B

[FUBAR]

Kevin

Your altered cards website is one of the best reads i've ever done with respect to cards. It is both incredibly information, yet amazingly scary! Everyone on this site should read ALL of his page.....


thank you for the information!


Jim

[iggyman]

Ted,

I'm sure we all care. Most of us are passionate about our cards and to various degrees have some amount of money invested into this so-called hobby. We would like to assume that "all" card surgeons are terrible spellers and their forgeries can be easily spotted. But as your post suggest, that is not always the case. High-level fraud is rampant in our society (or any other society were $$$ and human beings are involved)......not much can be done about that. Our only defense is to question every new "find" and document the work of old-time collectors like yourself. Lets face the facts, this hobby relies way too much on the card graders at SGC/PSA. When in actuality, both companies are in the business of entombing cards as quickly as possible (they probably spend less then a minute authenticating a card). With that said, as collectors we have three choices, either leave the hobby, choose to be oblivious, or acquire knowledge. Hopefully, the majority choose option three.

Lovely Day...

[onlychild]

I guess there can be re-fronted T205's (especially a Cobb, Johnson, or a Matty); however,
do we know all the front/back combos that exist in this set....as we do with the T206's ?

Furthermore, does anyone really care ? ?

Ted, I'm just trying to help prove your theory. Entire pictures can be removed and cards can be refronted...they shouldn't be considered rebacked. The T205/T206 combo was made just to show it can done.

Here is a picture removed in one piece from a beater T206 I made for you last night, with pics taken from the back side. It had some wrinkles that broke through the surface, so naturally those pieces would be split when lifted.

Imagine this is a Cobb and I removed another the pic from a Red Hindu that had severe front damage. If done properly, the two can be joined without detection. Perhaps it could be spotted by a very intricate inspection (up to an hour in some cases) but what grading company would spend that kind of time? With the right two cards I imagine any combo is possible.

Kevin

[tedzan]

A momentary lapse on my behalf....for nobody in their sane mind would alter a T205 PIEDMONT card
of Matty to re-front another card of Matty with a DRUM card of Matty (if such a f/b combo exists).

This certainly tells us why we don't see any T205's being altered like T206's are.

Thanks for the sanity check.

TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

It's obvious by looking at Kevin's examples that these type of alterations can and have been done,but I'm not too convinced that just anyone could pull off a "re-fronting" job that would fool all graders and collectors.There is no way,unless you are a pro like Kevin,that you could "build" an example that could fool everyone,IMO.I would guess there may be a handful of people who could do an "undetectable" job-my point is that I do not think it's as easy to do as it sounds,that's all.

I admit,it is scary-but I would be a little more leary if I were buying these ultra rare,one of a few known,high dollar,bionic back cards........

Clayton

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I guess there can be re-fronted T205's (especially a Cobb, Johnson, or a Matty); however,
do we know all the front/back combos that exist in this set....as we do with the T206's ?
TED Z

Since the backs have their names, stats, and biographies on them I think it would be a bit hard to change fronts on T205s.