List of known Red HINDU's....can you add any new ones ?

[barrysloate]

Robert- as I recall Kevin rebacked a non-sports card in the presence of author Jamieson and then sent it in to be graded. Jamieson claims he received a package from Kevin several weeks later with that exact card- now in a slab and with a numerical grade. And that's scary.

John- I know Kevin made a huge gaffe on the board but I still believe he is a skilled and knowledgeable paper restorer.

[caramelcard]

John,

We should discuss whether or not we've seen more than one example of a lot of these combinations.

In this thread, Jeff posted a Chase/Red Hindu. I've never seen another.

My friend has a Cy Young glove/red hindu and I don't believe I've seen another.

And your Kleinow? Have you seen another?

There might be others out there, but not sure.

Why haven't we speculated on whether or not the above cards are rebacked?

If any of the Cobbs would break this new found pattern of not being found with a hindu back, it would obviously be the Red portrait "superprint."

Rob

[wonkaticket]

Barry I hear ya,

The facts are simple as long as there is money in this hobby there will be folks willing to take advantage of us. There’s nothing that can be done for every Kevin there are dozens of better equipped more talented card doctors with not so lofty Robin Hood type personas.

These guys will always be one step ahead as all criminals are in almost everything. It’s a game in which the good guys are always one step behind. Unfortunately there will always be one sucker who we will learn from their misfortune. It’s like a bad game of spin the bottle.

All one can really do to protect himself is educate themselves as much as they can, don’t be afraid to ask questions and if it seems fishy walk away.

The only real saving grace this hobby has as there’s no real money in this hobby yet. Get these items in the realm of rare manuscripts and oil paintings/fine art where lots of stuff is trading in six figure and many items are millions. Well boys and girls then you’re in for some real interesting times in regards to fakes.

Kevin’s of the world can perhaps help the graders stop the hacks or common doctor but when the right folks want to sell us fakes were in trouble. Keep in mind folks there are museums who have questionable manuscripts in their collections they paid millions for. This goes for oil paintings and tons of fine art,weapons, cars…the list goes on and on…our little baseball cards are a joke compared to what real crooks can do.

Cheers,

John

[teetwoohsix]

Excellent post Rob,I agree.

Clayton

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

John,

We should discuss whether or not we've seen more than one example of a lot of these combinations.

In this thread, Jeff posted a Chase/Red Hindu. I've never seen another.

My friend has a Cy Young glove/red hindu and I don't believe I've seen another.

And your Kleinow? Have you seen another?

There might be others out there, but not sure.

Why haven't we speculated on whether or not the above cards are rebacked?

If any of the Cobbs would break this new found pattern of not being found with a hindu back, it would obviously be the Red portrait "superprint."

Rob

Rob,

Fair and good questions.

Chase Hindu yes I think Ted has one.

Kleinow yes seen two in fact one is in REA right now..(Mines nicer..LOL )

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13404

As for Young can't say I've seen a Red Hindu Young Glove...however seen quite a few Hindu cards of Young so he does pop up. In regards to Cobb seen none...

Like I said on the fence a bit still but leaning towards no print for Hindu on Cobb. Do to not seeing them and the connections these cards seem to have to one source who was getting cards from Moser.

Also in reagards to re-backing I'm a lot more inclined to think a re-backer would craft his trade on HOF players vs. a common such as Klienow or even Chase to a degree. Seems silly to destroy a Red Hindu common to create another common..folks are going to go for the gusto..Cobb, Matty even perhaps Young. Sort of like setting up a counterfeiting ring to print $1 dollar bills.

Hope that helps.

John

[caramelcard]

Hey John,

Yeah, that does help. I wasn't aware that Ted had a Chase/Red Hindu.

Lucky guy!

Anyways, I was just trying to make the simple point that just cuz we haven't seen more than one...

I'm not familiar with Moser. I'll search back posts on him. I had no reason to doubt the collector who initially brought the red cobb/red hindu and bat on/brown hindu to the board.

As far as whether or not a rebacker would use a hofer? I think the main thing (if we use what we've seen as evidence) the rebacker goes for is recognizable subjects that are mid grade examples (like yours ).

I guess if I was a rebacker, I'd try to put more than one example of a front/back combo into the hobby. Ok we're giving them way too many ideas now.

By the way, not to digress too much out of the red hindu zone, but what were you saying here?

"One would think we would see at least one other in all these years somewhere..heck even during my Murphy quest I found 3 BL460's examples in fact in BL460 there are many cards that have many examples even a single Cobb Red BL460."

Was the Cobb Red BL 460 suspect as well?

[cfc1909]

here is another Chase

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2008/240.html

I have also seen a few Young and Klienow reds over the years-I will try and find a auction result.

[caramelcard]

Thanks Jim,

What do you think?
Are you convinced that all four Cobbs are impossible with hindu backs?


We need to revisit the blue 7C or FC crayon on the backs of hindus as well. There's so many of them, it must be significant in some way.

Rob

[sando69]

john-
that cobb is stunning!
what can you share about it's history?
*i had never seen one before...
thank you for sharing that quality scan!

[cfc1909]

I will try and tell this the best I can.

In the late 90s there was a Donovan Drum that was a part of a group of 10 tough backed 206s that was auctioned by one of the larger auction houses of that time. Later these cards appeared on ebay except for the Donovan. The Donovan never showed up.

Later the Cobb Drum in question was proven rebacked by the scan that was kept of the Donovan. The Cobb Drum had the identical back as the Donovan Drum. Not 100% sure what happened next but I am 100% sure that Donovans back is on Cobb.

This was when the rebacking was brought to light in the hobby. It had been going on for some time and still does.



Robert- first let me say Cobb bat on and green is a possible combo and should exist with Hindu brown.

that said-
I am on the fence with the Cobb Hindu-I have only seen one example each of the browns and only one red also.

I would really like to own one but I have never seen one for sale or auctioned except the red in REA. I would think as a collecting group we should be able to come up with more than one brown Hindu Cobb. Hindu brown is not that difficult and that makes me think we should be able to account for more than one example each.
I can buy one red because they are so much tougher but not just one brown. But who knows maybe a hobby pioneer hoarded these up before us newbies came along

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

By the way, not to digress too much out of the red hindu zone, but what were you saying here?

"One would think we would see at least one other in all these years somewhere..heck even during my Murphy quest I found 3 BL460's examples in fact in BL460 there are many cards that have many examples even a single Cobb Red BL460."

Was the Cobb Red BL 460 suspect as well?

The BL460 Cobb I feel is legit...it's in an SGC 80 holder now...LOL (Not mine)

[E93]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

John- I know Kevin made a huge gaffe on the board but I still believe he is a skilled and knowledgeable paper restorer.

That is an understatement!!! Kevin has made numerous huge gaffes!!!
JimB

[barrysloate]

John- well put in post #90, but I slightly disagree with one point- there is plenty of money being funneled into this hobby. True, it's not Vincent van Gogh kind of money, but there are lots of five-figure and six-figure cards trading, and from where I'm sitting that's a lot of money. It's enough to motivate the card doctors.

Jim- I forget Kevin's other huge gaffes.

[tedzan]

Regarding your ?'s in post #89......
" We should discuss whether or not we've seen more than one example of a lot of these combinations.

In this thread, Jeff posted a Chase/Red Hindu. I've never seen another.

My friend has a Cy Young glove/red hindu and I don't believe I've seen another.

And your Kleinow? Have you seen another?

There might be others out there, but not sure.

Why haven't we speculated on whether or not the above cards are rebacked?

If any of the Cobbs would break this new found pattern of not being found with a hindu back, it would
obviously be the Red portrait "superprint." "

Responses......

(1) Jeff's, REA, and mine (a beater) = 3 - Blue Chase / Red HINDU cards

(2) Your friend's and a beater that I know of = 2 - CYoung / Red HINDU cards

(3) Wonka's, REA, and a possible 3rd = 3 - Kleinow / Red HINDU cards

(4) the 3 "beater" cards noted here date back to the early 1980's (trust me, these were NOT re-backed
cards).

(5) The 6 super-prints are pretty consistent regarding the backs they were printed with. Red HINDU is
the exception....it has only been confirmed with Chance, Chase, & Evers. One fact is certain, all 6 are
AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT No-Prints.

Rob....my question to you....you seem to be "fighting" this rash of re-backing that occurred approx. 10
years ago. Can you please explain why ?

Incidently, I have never seen this done with Caramel cards, is that perhaps, why you are skeptical of
what we are telling you regarding T206's ? ?

Finally, if you haven't read my thread on the BL 460 / Red HINDU connection, here is the link to it....

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...broad+leaf+460

Regards,

TED Z

[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

First off, my user name on this board happens to be "caramelcard" and I do enjoy them, but not everything I say has a hidden "caramel card" agenda. I'm not gonna give my tobacco card resume, but I collect those too!

You present a lot (probably more than most on the board) of good theories and questions, but that's what they are. You are not presenting facts every time you state something on this board. Sometimes maybe, but not all the time, so please allow folks to ask questions and present theories that may be contrary to yours and the collective can do what they want with both sides.

You and I end up on opposite sides of the argument a lot for some reason. Most of the time I agree with you. Even if I do it's something about the manner in which you present your theories that makes me want to disagree.

Since you responded to my post about many red hindu cards being one of a kind in such a matter of fact way, I'll do the same.

How do you know my friend's Cy Young glove/red hindu is not the same "beater" that you know of?

You can't always take a little tidbit of your memory and present it as fact because you don't know where these cards are now and how many times you've counted the same card. You don't know how many reports to you from others are inaccurate and how many people have stretched the truth.

My point was that if we only know of one front/back example we don't have to discount it especially if it fits within the normal parameters of T206 back patterns which the red portrait does.

If it's something ridiculous like a green portrait red hindu then by all means let's discount it.

If the red portrait/red hindu example shows some possible signs of rebacking then let's talk about it.

You saying that it's rebacked because you and your buddies think so is not really a great explanation.

I'm not fighting the fact that there was a group of rebacked cards years ago. I remember some of them. I was identifying some differences between those rebacked cards and the Cobb/red portrait.

Those differences...again...were:

1. The Green Cobb/red hindu reback was a messy job and couldn't have been the same person that might have rebacked the red cobb/red hindu.

2. The matty/red hindu, bat on/cb, etc. are not possible whereas the red cobb/red hindu and bat on/brown hindu are.

For the record, I know of a Walter Johnson portrait brown hindu reback that is a fairly obvious job as well.

Now, all this being said. I'm with you on this. I've never been able to confirm (except the two on this board) any T206 Cobb with a hindu back it seems that it COULD BE some kind of anomaly.

Rob

[JP]

Rob, very eloquent and well thought out post. It was a pleasure reading such a thoughtfully constructed summary...rare on these boards!

[tedzan]

Rob

re..Cobb/red Hindu

There are a few us on this forum that are privy to the background scenario regarding this card. I am not at liberty
to reveal the facts. However, this scenario casts significant doubt as to the authenticity of this card.

re..Chase and CYoung red Hindu "beaters"

I am sure that your friend's CYoung/red Hindu is not the same "beater" that I know of, since this Young resides in
the collection of a long-time friend of mine, who acquired his Young in the early 1980's. He also has my Chase, as
I traded it to him a year ago. He specializes in rare T206 backs....he currently has about a dozen red Hindu's.

If you perceive that my responses here appear to be somewhat contentious, then I am really sorry about that. I do
not mean to be. I guess, I've become somewhat jaded in having to repeatedly explain my stand on this Cobb (hav-
ing known the aforementioned background scenario regarding this Cobb).

Really, there is no reason why we cannot have a reasonable dialogue on this subject. I can appreciate the fact that,
since this card is graded, it causes some to question my stand on it. However, as we've already noted, there have
been some graded cards that have been proven fakes....and, fortunately these cases are far and few between.


TED Z