List of known Red HINDU's....can you add any new ones ?

[Chicago206]

If I bought that card (and I dont have that type of money), the very first thing I would do is to try to have it honestly analyzed for authenticity. I dont have the information on who/how this could be done, but I think there has to be some way to do so. If there isnt, then whats the point of ever buying another high dollar card ever again, right? I dont think I could ever be comfortable with such a card if even the slightest doubt was in the deepest region of my subconscience. Wouldnt you want it examined extensively for your own peace of mind?

[whitehse]

[QUOTE=Chicago206;801758]If I bought that card (and I dont have that type of money), the very first thing I would do is to try to have it honestly analyzed for authenticity. I dont have the information on who/how this could be done, but I think there has to be some way to do so. If there isnt, then whats the point of ever buying another high dollar card ever again, right? I dont think I could ever be comfortable with such a card if even the slightest doubt was in the deepest region of my subconscience. Wouldnt you want it examined extensively for your own peace of mind?[/QUOTE]


Not AFTER I buy it!

[FUBAR]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

If I bought that card (and I dont have that type of money), the very first thing I would do is to try to have it honestly analyzed for authenticity.

If I were thinking of spending that kind of money, I would make every effort to assure its authenticity BEFORE i drop the cash... Penny wise and pound foolish. I think everyone here would agree it is better to find out before and save yourself the money then to find out after and lose your investment.

[Chicago206]

Verify before you buy it? Good idea, and im sure REA wouldnt mind you taking the card for a few weeks prior to auction. Who do I ask for when I call them with this minor request?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

Verify before you buy it? Good idea, and im sure REA wouldnt mind you taking the card for a few weeks prior to auction. Who do I ask for when I call them with this minor request?

Most major auction houses will let you inspect items before and during the auction, if you're a known buyer. At REA ask for Rob.

I agree that verifying (beyond the fact that it's already graded) would be a challenge. They're not going to let you send it in to a grading company, but they might let you black light it. They would certainly let you loupe it.

[Vol]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Most major auction houses will let you inspect items before and during the auction, if you're a known buyer. At REA ask for Rob.

I agree that verifying (beyond the fact that it's already graded) would be a challenge. They're not going to let you send it in to a grading company, but they might let you black light it. They would certainly let you loupe it.

Does SGC/PSA black light most all of the cards that they grade?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by VOLnVEGAS

Does SGC/PSA black light most all of the cards that they grade?

I'm sure they'd prefer not to say. But since you used the key word "most," I am going to guess absolutely not. I know they spend more time on the more valuable cards, but I bet most cards get nothing more than a minute. From a cost point of view, they can't. Not with bulk specials working out to $5 or less per card.

Keep in mind that the rebacking of these T206 cards as Red Hindu's occurred over 10 years ago. I'm sure they'd take a longer look today at anything that didn't seem to match up. There's a lot more research and knowledge out there today than there was back then.

[tedzan]

Well stated Jim......
"Keep in mind that the rebacking of these T206 cards as Red Hindu's occurred over 10 years ago. I'm sure
they'd take a longer look today at anything that didn't seem to match up. There's a lot more research and
knowledge out there today than there was back then. "

Thanks to Net54, nowadays most of us are aware of the legit T206 f/b combos and the ones that are fakes.

P.S.
Sorry to be picky regarding those age-old axioms......but, not quite the same. It's usually the person with
experience and indept knowledge that will be "dragged" down by the idiot, who will resort to name calling,
when the facts confuse him.

TED Z

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by FUBAR

If I were thinking of spending that kind of money, I would make every effort to assure its authenticity BEFORE i drop the cash... Penny wise and pound foolish. I think everyone here would agree it is better to find out before and save yourself the money then to find out after and lose your investment.

However, If you're a Collector, the approach may vary.
It all depends on your knowledge, and experience ... you might take a shot at something, from a gut feeling.

If there's an attempt at deception ... and I've been there ... you can beat it ... If you know the subject matter.

Ted, would you like me to post what you call diatribe on the board ... and let the people decide for themselves?
First you tell them that their answer doesn't count unless you see the card, now you tell them what to think.

Folks, believe in whatever you want to believe in ... Theories will be theories, and Facts will always be facts.

[tedzan]

Chi206

JimVB linked to my thread in which I elaborated on my research regarding the Kimball Factory (#649 Rochester, NY) that produced
the HINDU cigarettes in order explain my skepticism regarding the red Cobb/red HINDU card. I am not the sole skeptic of the legi-
timacy of this card. I can name at least 6 veteran T206 collectors (or Ty Cobb collectors) on this forum who agree with me. (I'll let
them chime in).

Needless to say, Cobb was the most famous ballplayer of the T206 era. If you count the four Cobbs' f/b permutations in the T206
set, you'll come up with at least 55 cards. So, why were any of the four Cobb's not printed with either Brown or Red HINDU backs ?
This remains a mystery and perhaps we will never know why. Anyhow, I'm convinced it has something to do with Factory #649.

The provenance of this red Cobb/red HINDU card can be traced back to the period (1999-2000) when a rash of RE-BACKED red HINDU
cards were in circulation. One of the most "infamous" one being a Matty (portrait) with a red HINDU back (an impossible f/b combo).
It was professionally graded by SGC at that time. Subsequently, SGC conceded that they were "duped" by this altered card. There
were several other T206's that were discovered re-backed back then. It's my opinion (and other's) that this Cobb was re-backed by
the same professional paper restorer that was quite busy back then re-backing T206's.

Gee, no wonder Red HINDU's are so tough to find....this pro was buying them up to do his "dirty work".


Hey guys, this is not the only BIG-BUCKS PSA graded fake in circulation, there is a Joe Doyle error card with a POLAR BEAR back out
there. I trust that most of you by now realize that the Joe Doyle error card exists only with a PIEDMONT 350 back.


Speaking about the Joe Doyle error card......brings me to respond to JOE "Potomac"........
I once knew a Joe P back in the 1980's - 1990's that was a great guy to talk BB cards for hours with. What has happened you JOE P ?

You have become a "broken record" with your endless diatribe. The only factor that I can attribute your grumpy-ness to is.....your INTELLECTUAL ENVY of others who post on this forum.

I will NOT debate with you, Joe. My favorite Uncle once gave me this good advice...."Do not ever engage in a discussion with a fool....
for, others will soon not be able to discern who the fool is between you."


T-Rex TED

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by tedzan

My favorite Uncle once gave me this good advice...."Do not ever engage in a discussion with a fool....
for, others will soon not be able to discern who the fool is between you."


T-Rex TED

My dad's version was:

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Exact same sentiment.

[FUBAR]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Now that's classic!!!!!




I am sure someone like REA would allow you to inspect a 2 million dollar card if you are a qualified and sincere buyer. I never said they would let you take it for a couple weeks.

If you are willing to buy from a picture, i printed one on your printer. Take a look at the top sheet, it is a picture of Wonder Woman's plane... please send payment! Paypal gift preferred or add 3%!!

[cfc1909]

I too have questions with the red Hindu Cobb. The seller was a board member at one time-I would love to hear from you.

Just because it is in a graded holder doesn't mean it is legit. The graders grade so many cards if someone wanted to get one past them I am sure they could-example- the bar Old Mills and the Red Hindu matty.

Also just because we have questions on the RH Cobb doesn't mean it is not legit but I would really like to get my hands on this one for a good look.

It helps to know what combos exist and what should exist. Teds new rules for this are very significant. It also helps if you have handeled thousands of 206s.

I wouldn't claim to be a t206 expert but I have spent alot of time trying and will continue to do so.


Chicago206-please read for at least one month before you question someones knowledge or post again. During that time if you have a question -write it down and keep reading. By the end of a month you will probably be able to answer most of your own questions.

If you can't at that time please post them and I will do my best to answer- if I can. If I can't I will do my best to get you an answer or another board member will probably chime in and help.

[E93]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

I wouldn't claim to be a t206 expert but I have spent alot of time trying and will continue to do so.

A lot of other people would claim you are a T206 expert. Thanks for all your contributions to these discussions.
JimB

[tedzan]

I'm reprising the initial post in this thread here in order to switch it back onto the main track. Show or
tell us of your Red HINDU cards.

Several email requests have motivated me to reprise my T206 information regarding Red HINDU cards.
The Red HINDU cards were printed and issued in Winter of 1910 (and very early 1911). It appears that
the 350/460 series Red HINDU cards were printed as "matched pairs" with the BROAD LEAF 460 cards,
since these two scarce T206 backs have in common identical fronts.

Did you know that the Red HINDU's were virtually unknown when Bill Heitman published his book, "The
Monster" in 1980 ? Bill noted that only 6 cards were known. They are indeed very rare.....in my opinion,
about as rare as BL 460 cards.

So let's see your Red HINDU's. All posts are welcome regarding Red HINDU cards....and, any questions
that you may have.


Example of 350/460 series card with Red HINDU back......




28 confirmed Red HINDU cards in the 350/460 series

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chi)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
Evers (Chi-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
O'Leary (hands at knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (fielding)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (New York)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


Example of 460-only series card with Red HINDU back......




12 confirmed Red HINDU cards in the 460-only series

Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummell
McGraw (glove hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat

The 40 cards listed here are accurate as of 4/21/10....if anyone on Net54 can confirm any more Red HINDU
cards....please post your input or email me at ......
tedzan11@comcat.net

Thank you,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Prior to utter chaos sidetracking this thread, I asked this thought-provoking question......

Why did American Lithographic Co. use RED ink to print these HINDU cards ?

The subsequent HINDU T205 cards are printed with Brown ink.

Let's hear some interesting ideas regarding this question.


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

This is just a guess-could they have just completed a Sweet Caporal back run,changed the plates to do a Hindu run,and forgot to change the ink?