List of known Red HINDU's....can you add any new ones ?

[caramelcard]

Thanks Ted,

I remember the green portrait Cobb/red hindu. It even ended up on ebay. To me, I thought that was a blatant reback job that most anyone could identify. I'm not familar with the others and have ignored anything the T206 museum says so I missed the matty/red hindu. That's a good example though. Thanks for pointing that one out.

Of course, I know that those front/back combos are impossible, but as you know the red portrait Cobb should or could be possible within all existing front/back theories which makes this one exceptional. Usually the folks who reback cards get it wrong as far as what is possible.

I've been looking for 10 years to try to document any Red/Bat Off with red hindu or any Green/Bat On with brown hindu, but I'm starting to come around that maybe none exist.

As stated before, when I asked a few years ago if anyone had a Cobb Bat On with brown hindu, I believe the same fellow who posted the red cobb/red hindu posted a Cobb Bat On brown hindu as well.

Here's that thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...cobb+bat+hindu


Rob

[caramelcard]

By the way, I thought Kevin's stuff dealt with removing print on backs to create blank backs or weird color variations.

I don't remember anything to do with rebacking?

Rob

[barrysloate]

Robert- as I recall Kevin rebacked a non-sports card in the presence of author Jamieson and then sent it in to be graded. Jamieson claims he received a package from Kevin several weeks later with that exact card- now in a slab and with a numerical grade. And that's scary.

John- I know Kevin made a huge gaffe on the board but I still believe he is a skilled and knowledgeable paper restorer.

[caramelcard]

John,

We should discuss whether or not we've seen more than one example of a lot of these combinations.

In this thread, Jeff posted a Chase/Red Hindu. I've never seen another.

My friend has a Cy Young glove/red hindu and I don't believe I've seen another.

And your Kleinow? Have you seen another?

There might be others out there, but not sure.

Why haven't we speculated on whether or not the above cards are rebacked?

If any of the Cobbs would break this new found pattern of not being found with a hindu back, it would obviously be the Red portrait "superprint."

Rob

[wonkaticket]

Barry I hear ya,

The facts are simple as long as there is money in this hobby there will be folks willing to take advantage of us. There’s nothing that can be done for every Kevin there are dozens of better equipped more talented card doctors with not so lofty Robin Hood type personas.

These guys will always be one step ahead as all criminals are in almost everything. It’s a game in which the good guys are always one step behind. Unfortunately there will always be one sucker who we will learn from their misfortune. It’s like a bad game of spin the bottle.

All one can really do to protect himself is educate themselves as much as they can, don’t be afraid to ask questions and if it seems fishy walk away.

The only real saving grace this hobby has as there’s no real money in this hobby yet. Get these items in the realm of rare manuscripts and oil paintings/fine art where lots of stuff is trading in six figure and many items are millions. Well boys and girls then you’re in for some real interesting times in regards to fakes.

Kevin’s of the world can perhaps help the graders stop the hacks or common doctor but when the right folks want to sell us fakes were in trouble. Keep in mind folks there are museums who have questionable manuscripts in their collections they paid millions for. This goes for oil paintings and tons of fine art,weapons, cars…the list goes on and on…our little baseball cards are a joke compared to what real crooks can do.

Cheers,

John

[teetwoohsix]

Excellent post Rob,I agree.

Clayton

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

John,

We should discuss whether or not we've seen more than one example of a lot of these combinations.

In this thread, Jeff posted a Chase/Red Hindu. I've never seen another.

My friend has a Cy Young glove/red hindu and I don't believe I've seen another.

And your Kleinow? Have you seen another?

There might be others out there, but not sure.

Why haven't we speculated on whether or not the above cards are rebacked?

If any of the Cobbs would break this new found pattern of not being found with a hindu back, it would obviously be the Red portrait "superprint."

Rob

Rob,

Fair and good questions.

Chase Hindu yes I think Ted has one.

Kleinow yes seen two in fact one is in REA right now..(Mines nicer..LOL )

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13404

As for Young can't say I've seen a Red Hindu Young Glove...however seen quite a few Hindu cards of Young so he does pop up. In regards to Cobb seen none...

Like I said on the fence a bit still but leaning towards no print for Hindu on Cobb. Do to not seeing them and the connections these cards seem to have to one source who was getting cards from Moser.

Also in reagards to re-backing I'm a lot more inclined to think a re-backer would craft his trade on HOF players vs. a common such as Klienow or even Chase to a degree. Seems silly to destroy a Red Hindu common to create another common..folks are going to go for the gusto..Cobb, Matty even perhaps Young. Sort of like setting up a counterfeiting ring to print $1 dollar bills.

Hope that helps.

John

[caramelcard]

Hey John,

Yeah, that does help. I wasn't aware that Ted had a Chase/Red Hindu.

Lucky guy!

Anyways, I was just trying to make the simple point that just cuz we haven't seen more than one...

I'm not familiar with Moser. I'll search back posts on him. I had no reason to doubt the collector who initially brought the red cobb/red hindu and bat on/brown hindu to the board.

As far as whether or not a rebacker would use a hofer? I think the main thing (if we use what we've seen as evidence) the rebacker goes for is recognizable subjects that are mid grade examples (like yours ).

I guess if I was a rebacker, I'd try to put more than one example of a front/back combo into the hobby. Ok we're giving them way too many ideas now.

By the way, not to digress too much out of the red hindu zone, but what were you saying here?

"One would think we would see at least one other in all these years somewhere..heck even during my Murphy quest I found 3 BL460's examples in fact in BL460 there are many cards that have many examples even a single Cobb Red BL460."

Was the Cobb Red BL 460 suspect as well?

[cfc1909]

here is another Chase

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2008/240.html

I have also seen a few Young and Klienow reds over the years-I will try and find a auction result.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

By the way, not to digress too much out of the red hindu zone, but what were you saying here?

"One would think we would see at least one other in all these years somewhere..heck even during my Murphy quest I found 3 BL460's examples in fact in BL460 there are many cards that have many examples even a single Cobb Red BL460."

Was the Cobb Red BL 460 suspect as well?

The BL460 Cobb I feel is legit...it's in an SGC 80 holder now...LOL (Not mine)

[E93]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

John- I know Kevin made a huge gaffe on the board but I still believe he is a skilled and knowledgeable paper restorer.

That is an understatement!!! Kevin has made numerous huge gaffes!!!
JimB

[barrysloate]

John- well put in post #90, but I slightly disagree with one point- there is plenty of money being funneled into this hobby. True, it's not Vincent van Gogh kind of money, but there are lots of five-figure and six-figure cards trading, and from where I'm sitting that's a lot of money. It's enough to motivate the card doctors.

Jim- I forget Kevin's other huge gaffes.

[tedzan]

Regarding your ?'s in post #89......
" We should discuss whether or not we've seen more than one example of a lot of these combinations.

In this thread, Jeff posted a Chase/Red Hindu. I've never seen another.

My friend has a Cy Young glove/red hindu and I don't believe I've seen another.

And your Kleinow? Have you seen another?

There might be others out there, but not sure.

Why haven't we speculated on whether or not the above cards are rebacked?

If any of the Cobbs would break this new found pattern of not being found with a hindu back, it would
obviously be the Red portrait "superprint." "

Responses......

(1) Jeff's, REA, and mine (a beater) = 3 - Blue Chase / Red HINDU cards

(2) Your friend's and a beater that I know of = 2 - CYoung / Red HINDU cards

(3) Wonka's, REA, and a possible 3rd = 3 - Kleinow / Red HINDU cards

(4) the 3 "beater" cards noted here date back to the early 1980's (trust me, these were NOT re-backed
cards).

(5) The 6 super-prints are pretty consistent regarding the backs they were printed with. Red HINDU is
the exception....it has only been confirmed with Chance, Chase, & Evers. One fact is certain, all 6 are
AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT No-Prints.

Rob....my question to you....you seem to be "fighting" this rash of re-backing that occurred approx. 10
years ago. Can you please explain why ?

Incidently, I have never seen this done with Caramel cards, is that perhaps, why you are skeptical of
what we are telling you regarding T206's ? ?

Finally, if you haven't read my thread on the BL 460 / Red HINDU connection, here is the link to it....

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...broad+leaf+460

Regards,

TED Z

[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

First off, my user name on this board happens to be "caramelcard" and I do enjoy them, but not everything I say has a hidden "caramel card" agenda. I'm not gonna give my tobacco card resume, but I collect those too!

You present a lot (probably more than most on the board) of good theories and questions, but that's what they are. You are not presenting facts every time you state something on this board. Sometimes maybe, but not all the time, so please allow folks to ask questions and present theories that may be contrary to yours and the collective can do what they want with both sides.

You and I end up on opposite sides of the argument a lot for some reason. Most of the time I agree with you. Even if I do it's something about the manner in which you present your theories that makes me want to disagree.

Since you responded to my post about many red hindu cards being one of a kind in such a matter of fact way, I'll do the same.

How do you know my friend's Cy Young glove/red hindu is not the same "beater" that you know of?

You can't always take a little tidbit of your memory and present it as fact because you don't know where these cards are now and how many times you've counted the same card. You don't know how many reports to you from others are inaccurate and how many people have stretched the truth.

My point was that if we only know of one front/back example we don't have to discount it especially if it fits within the normal parameters of T206 back patterns which the red portrait does.

If it's something ridiculous like a green portrait red hindu then by all means let's discount it.

If the red portrait/red hindu example shows some possible signs of rebacking then let's talk about it.

You saying that it's rebacked because you and your buddies think so is not really a great explanation.

I'm not fighting the fact that there was a group of rebacked cards years ago. I remember some of them. I was identifying some differences between those rebacked cards and the Cobb/red portrait.

Those differences...again...were:

1. The Green Cobb/red hindu reback was a messy job and couldn't have been the same person that might have rebacked the red cobb/red hindu.

2. The matty/red hindu, bat on/cb, etc. are not possible whereas the red cobb/red hindu and bat on/brown hindu are.

For the record, I know of a Walter Johnson portrait brown hindu reback that is a fairly obvious job as well.

Now, all this being said. I'm with you on this. I've never been able to confirm (except the two on this board) any T206 Cobb with a hindu back it seems that it COULD BE some kind of anomaly.

Rob

[JP]

Rob, very eloquent and well thought out post. It was a pleasure reading such a thoughtfully constructed summary...rare on these boards!

[teetwoohsix]

Is the only reason some veteran collectors have suspicions about the Red Cobb/Red Hindu T206 because only one is known of,or because of the rash of rebacked cards that happened 1999/2000?

I only ask because as was pointed out earlier,it seems this front/back combo could be possible.

I have no opinion-have never even held a Red Hindu (yet )in hand,but am really enjoying this thread!!

Sincerely,Clayton

[E93]

It is my understanding that several groups of rare backed commons were auctioned off around '99-'00 (all bought by an infamous card doctor) and that those backs (with distinctive markings) started ending up on HOFs not long after.

I have no clue as to whether the Cobb/red Hindu is related to this or not. If memories are correct and it dates back to the '80s, then it probably is good. It seems some reliable source remembers seeing a red Cobb/red Hindu back then anyway, even if this one is not it. I agree that the fact that it is a possible/probable combo lends to the likelihood of it being real. The fact that there are no legit brown Hindus of this front makes it all the more possible. If brown Hindus of red/Cobb were real, we would know of many examples. Brown Hindus are not that tough.
JimB