List of known Red HINDU's....can you add any new ones ?

[barrysloate]

Dan- it is in fact quite easy to reback cards and make them virtually undetectable. Many rebacked cards currently reside in slabs that are extremely difficult to tell, so much so that they fooled the graders. And this is not a comment about the Cobb with Hindu because I have never seen it in person.

[caramelcard]

"...so much so that they fooled the graders"

Must've been real good to get it by those guys.

Kidding Barry but couldn't help myself. I know what you're saying, but I must say I've never seen any of this group of T206 cards that Ted refers to that have been rebacked so well that very seasoned T206 collectors can't tell.

I've seen many rebacked T206 (including more than one Cobb/hindu combination) that are completely obvious and show staining or darkening around the edge.

Are you sure it's "quite easy" to make these rebacked cards undetectable? I would think it's quite difficult. I assume that you mean for a handful of people in this country who are paper experts it's "easy?"

If these are virtually undetectable to us, than the only time we would even ask the question with any issue is if the front/back combo wasn't established in the hobby yet. That's scary.

Ted (or anyone else),

Could you tell us a bit more about:

"The numerous T206 re-backed cards in 1999-2000 era that were graded by PSA and SGC were very professionally re-backed."

How were these cards identified? Because the front/back combos didn't exist or because the rebacking was evident from looking at the cards?

Do you have any examples of what you're talking about?

Thanks.

Rob

[wonkaticket]

Also aware of the consinor who owned the card also from my understanding these cards "Hindu's" Cobbs came from a dealer who I will not name.

He was getting these from a person in NY who was connected to or was Moser the re-backer himslef. I think the bad Drum Cobb the fellow board members had which we all no was bad also came from this same dealer slash NY connection.

One connection at arms length to tons of one of a kind Cobb's seems odd to me sort of like Chan having 4 Old Mill OP's.

Also shear law of avg. says at least more than one Hindu (Red or Brown) of any Cobb would have popped up by now. I mean we can point out a handfull of Johnson's and Youngs..yet the biggest player of the day only one of each.

Two Browns and one Red? In all my years never seen one, superset 17k cards just the 2 Browns in question. Asked many auctioners none of them every sold one or remember seeing one inculding Rob from REA. Never seen one on Ebay, never seen one for sale in any way.

One would think we would see at least one other in all these years somewhere..heck even during my Murphy quest I found 3 BL460's examples in fact in BL460 there are many cards that have many examples even a single Cobb Red BL460.

I think we could all say that BL460 is way tougher than Brown Hindu and much tougher than Red. And on a super print like Cobb we have more single examples of a common like Murphy floating around with BL460 back than Cobb with a Brown Hindu or Red for that matter.

These are either the rarest of all T206's even more rare than the Doyle as each Cobb Hindu is a one of one. Or something doesn't fit?

Cheers,

John

John

[barrysloate]

Dan- yes, of course it takes great skill to do it, but that's what paper conservators are trained to do. Did you get a copy of Mint Condition by Dave Jamieson and read the chapter about Kevin Saucier? I think it would be worth your while.

[caramelcard]

Sorry Barry.

I fooled you. Dan and I similar avatars. lol.

No I haven't read that. I'd like to.

[chiprop]

I think cards are quite easy to see through the plastic and stand by what I saw. That being said... Of course it's possible, but not likely. Dan

[barrysloate]

Hi Robert- sorry about that. All you sky blue E99/E100 guys look the same.

[wonkaticket]

I'll also add that the one thing that keeps me from crying foul is the owner of the Brown Hindu Cobbs I highly respect as a T206 collector and that keeps me on the fence a bit here.

Barry agree the chapter on Kevin was good, while I don’t agree with his methods sometimes and thought he lost a lot of credibility with the whole private email thing bragging about sliding bogus cards to forum members...one thing he said is an absolute truth and I would back him 100% on the comment and I quote.

“Nobody’s going to give a shit once it’s in a holder. Somebody’s going to buy it.”

Kevin you’re spot on! Many times the slips should look like this…

[E93]

I never did post my example.

[wonkaticket]

Super card Jim!

[Brian Weisner]

Hi JimB,
Nice Wheat.... I have one in a PSA 4 holder too... But your card is nicer.
Hi Ted,
I know of 2 very nice Young/Red Hindu's, 1 sold in EX-MT condition(1998 Oser auction) and the other was sold as trimmed in a group of Red Hindu's several years ago.

Be well Brian

[tedzan]

Dan and Rob A....and, to everyone else who is interested......

Check-out this link before you think, that a RE-BACKED card cannot GRADED with at least a PSA 4
or an SGC 50 grade......Matty (portrait) with Red HINDU back

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_23.html


FURTHERMORE, at that same period (circa 1999-2000) the following re-backed cards were GRADED.

Green Cobb with RED HINDU back

Cobb (bat on) with CAROLINA BRIGHTS back

Cobb (bat off) with PIEDMONT 150 back


ALL THE ABOVE T206 F/B COMBO's ARE IMPOSSIBLE


Do NOT ever underestimate the ability of a Professional Paper Restorer. They can do wonders with
Million's of dollars worth of Artwork....much less a simple little T206 BB card.


And, the next question that arises is......who would pay big $$$$$ for an altered BB card......

Well, someone has paid a small fortune on a GRADED T206 Joe Doyle error card that has a POLAR
BEAR back......folks, THIS IS ANOTHER IMPOSSIBLE T206 F/B COMBO.


P.S.....there are many more re-backed cards during that period. These immediately come to mind.
Since, they are obvious NO-NO's. There are others that are valid F/B combo's that have not been
detected. Scary.....isn't it ?


TED Z

[caramelcard]

Thanks Ted,

I remember the green portrait Cobb/red hindu. It even ended up on ebay. To me, I thought that was a blatant reback job that most anyone could identify. I'm not familar with the others and have ignored anything the T206 museum says so I missed the matty/red hindu. That's a good example though. Thanks for pointing that one out.

Of course, I know that those front/back combos are impossible, but as you know the red portrait Cobb should or could be possible within all existing front/back theories which makes this one exceptional. Usually the folks who reback cards get it wrong as far as what is possible.

I've been looking for 10 years to try to document any Red/Bat Off with red hindu or any Green/Bat On with brown hindu, but I'm starting to come around that maybe none exist.

As stated before, when I asked a few years ago if anyone had a Cobb Bat On with brown hindu, I believe the same fellow who posted the red cobb/red hindu posted a Cobb Bat On brown hindu as well.

Here's that thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...cobb+bat+hindu


Rob

[caramelcard]

By the way, I thought Kevin's stuff dealt with removing print on backs to create blank backs or weird color variations.

I don't remember anything to do with rebacking?

Rob

[barrysloate]

Robert- as I recall Kevin rebacked a non-sports card in the presence of author Jamieson and then sent it in to be graded. Jamieson claims he received a package from Kevin several weeks later with that exact card- now in a slab and with a numerical grade. And that's scary.

John- I know Kevin made a huge gaffe on the board but I still believe he is a skilled and knowledgeable paper restorer.

[caramelcard]

John,

We should discuss whether or not we've seen more than one example of a lot of these combinations.

In this thread, Jeff posted a Chase/Red Hindu. I've never seen another.

My friend has a Cy Young glove/red hindu and I don't believe I've seen another.

And your Kleinow? Have you seen another?

There might be others out there, but not sure.

Why haven't we speculated on whether or not the above cards are rebacked?

If any of the Cobbs would break this new found pattern of not being found with a hindu back, it would obviously be the Red portrait "superprint."

Rob

[wonkaticket]

Barry I hear ya,

The facts are simple as long as there is money in this hobby there will be folks willing to take advantage of us. There’s nothing that can be done for every Kevin there are dozens of better equipped more talented card doctors with not so lofty Robin Hood type personas.

These guys will always be one step ahead as all criminals are in almost everything. It’s a game in which the good guys are always one step behind. Unfortunately there will always be one sucker who we will learn from their misfortune. It’s like a bad game of spin the bottle.

All one can really do to protect himself is educate themselves as much as they can, don’t be afraid to ask questions and if it seems fishy walk away.

The only real saving grace this hobby has as there’s no real money in this hobby yet. Get these items in the realm of rare manuscripts and oil paintings/fine art where lots of stuff is trading in six figure and many items are millions. Well boys and girls then you’re in for some real interesting times in regards to fakes.

Kevin’s of the world can perhaps help the graders stop the hacks or common doctor but when the right folks want to sell us fakes were in trouble. Keep in mind folks there are museums who have questionable manuscripts in their collections they paid millions for. This goes for oil paintings and tons of fine art,weapons, cars…the list goes on and on…our little baseball cards are a joke compared to what real crooks can do.

Cheers,

John

[teetwoohsix]

Excellent post Rob,I agree.

Clayton

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

John,

We should discuss whether or not we've seen more than one example of a lot of these combinations.

In this thread, Jeff posted a Chase/Red Hindu. I've never seen another.

My friend has a Cy Young glove/red hindu and I don't believe I've seen another.

And your Kleinow? Have you seen another?

There might be others out there, but not sure.

Why haven't we speculated on whether or not the above cards are rebacked?

If any of the Cobbs would break this new found pattern of not being found with a hindu back, it would obviously be the Red portrait "superprint."

Rob

Rob,

Fair and good questions.

Chase Hindu yes I think Ted has one.

Kleinow yes seen two in fact one is in REA right now..(Mines nicer..LOL )

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13404

As for Young can't say I've seen a Red Hindu Young Glove...however seen quite a few Hindu cards of Young so he does pop up. In regards to Cobb seen none...

Like I said on the fence a bit still but leaning towards no print for Hindu on Cobb. Do to not seeing them and the connections these cards seem to have to one source who was getting cards from Moser.

Also in reagards to re-backing I'm a lot more inclined to think a re-backer would craft his trade on HOF players vs. a common such as Klienow or even Chase to a degree. Seems silly to destroy a Red Hindu common to create another common..folks are going to go for the gusto..Cobb, Matty even perhaps Young. Sort of like setting up a counterfeiting ring to print $1 dollar bills.

Hope that helps.

John

[E93]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

John- I know Kevin made a huge gaffe on the board but I still believe he is a skilled and knowledgeable paper restorer.

That is an understatement!!! Kevin has made numerous huge gaffes!!!
JimB

[barrysloate]

John- well put in post #90, but I slightly disagree with one point- there is plenty of money being funneled into this hobby. True, it's not Vincent van Gogh kind of money, but there are lots of five-figure and six-figure cards trading, and from where I'm sitting that's a lot of money. It's enough to motivate the card doctors.

Jim- I forget Kevin's other huge gaffes.

[tedzan]

Regarding your ?'s in post #89......
" We should discuss whether or not we've seen more than one example of a lot of these combinations.

In this thread, Jeff posted a Chase/Red Hindu. I've never seen another.

My friend has a Cy Young glove/red hindu and I don't believe I've seen another.

And your Kleinow? Have you seen another?

There might be others out there, but not sure.

Why haven't we speculated on whether or not the above cards are rebacked?

If any of the Cobbs would break this new found pattern of not being found with a hindu back, it would
obviously be the Red portrait "superprint." "

Responses......

(1) Jeff's, REA, and mine (a beater) = 3 - Blue Chase / Red HINDU cards

(2) Your friend's and a beater that I know of = 2 - CYoung / Red HINDU cards

(3) Wonka's, REA, and a possible 3rd = 3 - Kleinow / Red HINDU cards

(4) the 3 "beater" cards noted here date back to the early 1980's (trust me, these were NOT re-backed
cards).

(5) The 6 super-prints are pretty consistent regarding the backs they were printed with. Red HINDU is
the exception....it has only been confirmed with Chance, Chase, & Evers. One fact is certain, all 6 are
AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT No-Prints.

Rob....my question to you....you seem to be "fighting" this rash of re-backing that occurred approx. 10
years ago. Can you please explain why ?

Incidently, I have never seen this done with Caramel cards, is that perhaps, why you are skeptical of
what we are telling you regarding T206's ? ?

Finally, if you haven't read my thread on the BL 460 / Red HINDU connection, here is the link to it....

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...broad+leaf+460

Regards,

TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Is the only reason some veteran collectors have suspicions about the Red Cobb/Red Hindu T206 because only one is known of,or because of the rash of rebacked cards that happened 1999/2000?

I only ask because as was pointed out earlier,it seems this front/back combo could be possible.

I have no opinion-have never even held a Red Hindu (yet )in hand,but am really enjoying this thread!!

Sincerely,Clayton

[E93]

It is my understanding that several groups of rare backed commons were auctioned off around '99-'00 (all bought by an infamous card doctor) and that those backs (with distinctive markings) started ending up on HOFs not long after.

I have no clue as to whether the Cobb/red Hindu is related to this or not. If memories are correct and it dates back to the '80s, then it probably is good. It seems some reliable source remembers seeing a red Cobb/red Hindu back then anyway, even if this one is not it. I agree that the fact that it is a possible/probable combo lends to the likelihood of it being real. The fact that there are no legit brown Hindus of this front makes it all the more possible. If brown Hindus of red/Cobb were real, we would know of many examples. Brown Hindus are not that tough.
JimB