Goodwin Pickups

[calvindog]

Greg, I've answered that question 38 times since I started criticizing Mastro a few years back and nothing I've said exculpates these auction houses.

Now here's one for you: do you think the auction results posted above are fishy? 5K for a card that sells for $200 bucks the other 20 times it sells? How about the inordinate amount of purported reneggers? And the personal guarantees he offers certain consignors? Any of that disturb you (assuming you were a bidder and not a consignor)?

[Matt]

As stated previously, we don't know enough to say anything definitely, but I am certainly concerned by the anecdotal evidence I have seen, heard and that has been presented here. Taking Leon's comments about friends shill bidding on behalf of consignors and then simply not paying if they win and also considering certain houses don't have that issue, I wonder if the issue here is that certain houses don't chase after non-paying bidders and perhaps have earned reputations. If someone knows that they will be pursued by a house if they win and don't pay then it's unlikely they'd take the risk of shill bidding; alternatively if someone knows a certain house doesn't care if they don't pay, then that may encourage shill bidding.
I wonder what steps Goodwin and other houses take to cut down on the rash of non-paying bidders that effect them as compared to say, REA, which doesn't have an issue. Does Goodwin pursue legal action? Do they even block that bidders address/phone number from bidding in future auctions? While enabling bad bidders certainly seems less direct then an auctioneer himself shilling up the auction, I likewise find it objectionable as it is akin to putting the loaded gun in hand and pointing it in the right direction.

[Vintageclout]

Matt and Greg...well said! Of all the inflamatory remarks this seemingly worthless thread is generating, yours just might make the most sense. I really don't think non-paying bidders are isloated to Goodwin, Mile High or any other auction house. To reiterate my previous meassage, I do believe it is widespread because an auction house just might fear any potential negative publicity. To answer one of your questions regarding Goodwin, I do specifically know TWO people that were banned from bidding from the auction because they didn't pay for their winning bids. Are there more...your guess is as good as mine? Also, Greg's comments on "card doctoring" are, by far, the most concerning issue in this hobby. Not only are people gettig "ripped off", but excessive auction prices are realized because a professional restorer can work miracles with cards, turning mid-grade examples into 7's or 8's. THis is where the real fraud exists!

By the way Matt...you might want to know that your Williard's Chocolate Premium was MY consignment which I previously paid almost $5K for approx. one year ago...I essentially took a beating with your winning bid! No hard feelings, and I wish you lots of luck with your new purchase. It is an awesome piece, and I agree that down the road you will realize a great ROI with it.
Additionally, I consigned a Duke Delehanty that I paid almost $15K for and only went for a hammer price of $11K in change...another beating that shocked me! You should also know (Jeff, this one's for you!) I informed Goodwin that I hoped for "at least" $5K on the Ruth & $15K on the Delehanty. I surely wish Jeff's inflated auction figures worked there magic with my two consignments because I lost $6K! Both were not shilled, inflated or as "Big Fish" says "toppled", regardless of my expectations. Unfortunately, this is the nature of the beast, the risk we all take with consignments. Jeff, you only seem to lay out the excessive high end results. Believe me, I have spoken to many people that were NOT happy with their Goodwin numbers. Every collector has experienced "pLus/delta" scenarios in their auction experiences.

In closing, I have had both good and bad days with Goodwin, REA, Heritage, etc. with this Goodwin auction not one of my best. However I will continue giving Goodwin, REA and Heritage lots because they treat me fairly, pay on time, and handle my cards with the utmost professionalism. I would like to point out that there is one specific thing I prefer about Goodwin...he virtually NEVER puts more than one of the same card in his auction. For example, Heritage currently has three 1956 Mantle's on two consecutive pages including an SGC 96, 92 and PSA 8! That is absolutely ridiculous. The consigners must be livid (I know I would be). REA also does that much too often, spreading the wealth between too many cards, but unfortunately with only one auction a year I do understand it is almost impossible not to have duplicates.

Regards,
Joe T.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

For example, Heritage currently has three 1956 Mantle's on two consecutive pages including an SGC 96, 92 and PSA 8! That is absolutely ridiculous. The consigners must be livid (I know I would be).

Just to clarify, I believe it is Mile high that has the 3-56 Mantle's.

[Adam]

Is anyone going to post pickups from the Goodwin auction? Wasn't that the purpose of this thread? Show them!

[Peter_Spaeth]

It seems we are dealing with three separate phenomena: (1) some auction prices seemingly out of line, (2) some cards appearing for sale shortly after they "sold" at auction; and (3) some cards appearing to be recycled through several auctions.

In any given case, of course one could construct an innocent explanation, and it might be correct. And it all could be innocent. But in my opinion there is enough there that one can legitimately raise questions without it being a so-called witchhunt.

One other observation: people are fond of arguing by extrapolation, MY card didn't do so well, therefore nothing must be going on. Or I won at less than my top all, therefore nothing must be going on. While there is a superficial appeal, and I recall the same arguments about Mastro, they don't really prove or disprove anything. IF for example, there was a pattern and practice of only selling cards if they met a hidden reserve, it is more likely an auction house would have that understanding with dealers than with collectors, because there is a far better chance of preserving secrecy. Similarly, IF an auction house was inclined to sometimes run people up to a maximum bid, it probably would only do so selectively to try to minimize detection.

The bottom line is, one can only observe the facts and try to understand them, and everyone's perception including my own is going to be colored by their personalities, experiences, and self-interest.

PS I agree with Greg that card doctoring is a more serious problem.

[Vintageclout]

Thank you Mike for clarifying....I inadvertantly stated Heritage auctioning the three '56 Mantle's...it is Mile High.

Regards,
Joe T.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Thank you Mike for clarifying....I inadvertantly stated Heritage auctioning the three '56 Mantle's...it is Mile High.

Regards,
Joe T.

Joe- I have sent you 3 messages.....1 through PM, 1 through outside email and 1 through the email in our Net54 system. Please answer one of them asap....thanks

[Vintageclout]

Greg,

Since Jeff refuses to answer your question about the Plow Candy Cobb I will try and help. I wanted that card in the worst way and waged a bidding war with someone, being outbid several times AFTER the $14K Mastro figure. Personally, for a card like that, I didn't care one bit about exceeding a prior figure...I wanted the card! I do know who won the card......it sold. There you have it. Two people who collect high end Cobb items refusing to lose until one of us (I'm the wimp!) bowed out.

Sometimes things are a lot more simple than they look!

Joe

[E93]

I am very psyched about this win in the recent Goodwin auction.

[calvindog]

Does anyone know if Joe Tomasullo (sp?) is still writing the descriptions for Goodwin's auction lots?

[botn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Greg, I've answered that question 38 times since I started criticizing Mastro a few years back and nothing I've said exculpates these auction houses.

Now here's one for you: do you think the auction results posted above are fishy? 5K for a card that sells for $200 bucks the other 20 times it sells? How about the inordinate amount of purported reneggers? And the personal guarantees he offers certain consignors? Any of that disturb you (assuming you were a bidder and not a consignor)?

Well I must be one dumb guy because I really don't recall the answer to my question or I would not have asked. If you think you are being ripped off then buy from someone else. Mitigate your damages. You feel shill bidding is going on then turn it over to someone who can ascertain whether or not it is happening. Gather evidence. Prices on their own are not evidence. There are circumstances behind auction results and higher than usual bids does not always mean the item was shilled. Prices are the starting place to launch an investigation not the determining factor that an item was shilled and your justification to attack someone's credibility.

You are a lawyer, a defense lawyer of all things. Imagine if your clients were tried and convicted on the quality of the evidence you have on Goodwin and even Mastro. Have you seen bidder records for either of these firms? You are nothing more than a messenger of information and have no first hand information or experiences that I am aware of.

Sorry but you are a bully sometimes and you come off as a guy with a personal vendetta and your campaign does get lost on me as a result. But I will answer your questions, unlike you who will not address mine from above or the one I posed regarding the E300 Cobb which you conveniently skirted around.

At face value, without looking at the circumstances, the 5K bid is odd. It is so odd that I feel there is something we are missing. And because I do not have all the facts I prefer not to condemn Bill. Next, who are these people who are claiming that Bill has stated he has had an inordinate number of reneggers? Same question on the issue of these personal guarantees he is offering, which sounds more like a hidden reserve than anything else? And finally, actually Jeff, no it is not that disturbing to me because of the other issues which in my opinion, make shill bidding look like an act of kindness. I am more concerned with how many butchered cards SGC and PSA have, knowingly or unknowingly, graded. That has always been my number one concern in this hobby which has only gotten worse over time. I am also concerned about owners of grading companies still actively selling cards. Grading improprieties trump all Jeff. In the case of shill bidding, while unlawful, the worst thing is that I pay the maximum I am willing to pay for an item.

I like to have all of the facts before I draw a conclusion. I don't think you or any of us have all of the facts to draw a conclusion one way or another.

[calvindog]

Greg, this isn't a criminal courtroom and the standard is not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Guarantees are now called hidden reserves? I didn't realize that was appropriate when there is no mention of it anywhere in Goodwin's rules of auction.

And are you a consignor in Goodwin auctions? I'm not.

I've got no hidden agenda unlike many people posting on this thread. And if I recall, you trash Mastro as well -- let me guess: you haven't consigned there in some time?

Woops, I didn't want to forget this oddity: http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=3293

[botn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Greg, this isn't a criminal courtroom and the standard is not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Guarantees are now called hidden reserves? I didn't realize that was appropriate when there is no mention of it anywhere in Goodwin's rules of auction.

And are you a consignor in Goodwin auctions? I'm not.

I've got no hidden agenda unlike many people posting on this thread. And if I recall, you trash Mastro as well -- let me guess: you haven't consigned there in some time?

Woops, I didn't want to forget this oddity: http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=3293

Exactly Jeff this is not a criminal courtroom. It is not a courtroom at all and so it should not be used as one.

Again, I am not speaking for Goodwin so stop twisting my words. I said it sounds like a hidden reserve and if it is, I have no idea what the law says about that kind of practice and was not speaking about if it was appropriate or not.

I do trash Mastro but compared to you I look like one of their supporters. Big difference between us in that way Jeff. I prefer not to be lumped in with you in that way.

Thanks for answering my questions. Your silence says it all.

[calvindog]

So you're a consignor to Goodwin and not Mastro? No wonder you support one and not the other when both had crazy auction results. Greg, the truth will set you free.

[BCD]

This beautiful 62 Topps leader card~!

Originally Posted by calvindog

Greg, this isn't a criminal courtroom and the standard is not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Guarantees are now called hidden reserves? I didn't realize that was appropriate when there is no mention of it anywhere in Goodwin's rules of auction.

And are you a consignor in Goodwin auctions? I'm not.

I've got no hidden agenda unlike many people posting on this thread. And if I recall, you trash Mastro as well -- let me guess: you haven't consigned there in some time?

Woops, I didn't want to forget this oddity: http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=3293