Even the so called good guys...ugly hobby?

Abravefan11 · #1 05-16-2009, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daviddbreadman

There is alot of valuable knowledge here to be had but its a shame there are so many egos here.

David-

While I agree with this statement one thing I have found to be true.

You can not get a room full of the most knowledgeable people on a particular subject and not have a room full of egos. It just doesn't happen.

calvindog · #2 05-16-2009, 10:03 PM

Todd, I disagree. I'm not wrapping this up in any kind of trial-ready scenario; my point about discussing admissions against penal interest are simply to note that normally such statements like Kevin's might not be admissible in a court because of the lack of reliability, i.e. hearsay. But because they are admissions against penal interest they have significant reliability because who would ever admit to the commission of a fraud in a private conversation? Traditionally, people do not lie when they admit to fraud. They lie to exculpate themselves from allegations of fraud.

And lastly, I'm curious about something. Have you ever discussed in a private email conversation the subject of altering cards and defrauding Net 54 members? And if not, do you know of anyone (besides Kevin and Elkins) who ever has? Anyone?

Peter_Spaeth · #3 05-16-2009, 10:15 PM

Jim Crandell - PSA Hall of Fame Collector with over 25,000 graded cards, most in PSA 8 or better.

"In my opinion, Kevin is one of the top three card experts in the world. I will not buy a high-valued card without him personally inspecting it and rendering an opinion. If he has the slightest doubt it has been altered, I will not buy it!"

calvindog · #4 05-16-2009, 10:18 PM

Ok, Peter, that does it for me. Case closed.

Oh wait -- I thought Jim never sent Kevin any of his cards?

Peter_Spaeth · #5 05-16-2009, 10:22 PM

I would only be speculating.

Adam · #6 05-16-2009, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jim Crandell - PSA Hall of Fame Collector with over 25,000 graded cards, most in PSA 8 or better.

"In my opinion, Kevin is one of the top three card experts in the world . . . "

Just curious -- who are the other two? Any guesses?

wonkaticket · #7 05-17-2009, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Just curious -- who are the other two? Any guesses?

Adam here are the top ten results according to a past Gallup Poll...

Chuck Norris
Barry Sloate
Kevin Sauicer
Bea Arthur
Jesus
Todd Bridges
The Guy from Mannix (Mike Conners)
Scott Baio
Santa Claus
Jeff Lichtman

Here's another Jim Crandall quote....

"You have a group of collectors on network 54 that do not like graded cards and in many cases the people that collect them. In their view, a fair amount of the cards are altered and those that buy them are buying plastic. On the flip side they believe they have the skills because they can feel the card outside the holder to detect alterations. Their knowledge next to Kevin is like a nursery schooler compared with someone who has a PHD."

nolemmings · #8 05-17-2009, 12:50 AM

Jeff, let me understand you. Your comments about admissibility of certain evidence--Kevin's statement--wasn't intended to suggest that any lawsuit should, would or could be filed here. It's just meant to show that the law will allow such statements because they are deemed reliable. OK.

So are you telling us that this initial statement of Kevin's, the one cut and pasted at the beginning of this thread, is inherently reliable? And that his subsequent disavowal and claim that he made it up is in fact the lie? We should or must believe the first and disregard the second? Because if so I do not believe many here see it that way--several are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt or chalk it up to poor judgment and bravado. Moreover, if you are right and the first statement is true:
"I have made sure that each already has or will have an altered card in their collection "
then I expect specific instances will surface--hell, everyone's on notice to go check their cards right now--and it will indeed blow back on or fall down on Kevin. My thought is let's wait and see if that in fact happens. I'm curious to know how anyone thinks that was done to them or even could have been done to them. I am certainly willing to eat crow if necessary, but right now I just think this thing is WAAAAAAAAAY overblown.

calvindog · #9 05-17-2009, 12:57 AM

Todd, I clearly stated many, many times in this thread that the claim that he had already committed fraud via the way he described is "not a major danger" or something to that effect. The part that troubled me was his stated desire to alter cards and defraud Net 54 members. That was bizarrely troubling, especially coming from a guy who claims to want the exact opposite with this hobby. And many, many people on the board would agree with this sentiment.

And you still haven't answered my question: Have you ever discussed in a private email conversation the subject of altering cards and defrauding Net 54 members? And if not, do you know of anyone (besides Kevin and Elkins) who ever has? Anyone?

nolemmings · #10 05-17-2009, 01:37 AM

I have no idea what your first sentence means--sorry. Please explain again how it is he has committed fraud.

I assumed your questions were rhetorical. I will not discuss with you the nature or content of any of my private emails, or by extension, list topics that I have not discussed in emails. This is simply none of your business. Similarly, my knowledge of other's people's email conversations, or lack of same, is a topic I have no desire to share.

E93 · #11 05-17-2009, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Just curious -- who are the other two? Any guesses?

I think Baker is one of them. He continually praised him, though I don't think he thought highly enough of him to cross his cards to GAI.

Mike Baker may be a good grader when he wants to be, but there are so many questionable cards in GAI holders, that he either is not good at it, or something fishy was going on there. Are they still in business? Re-opening Monday?
JimB

wonkaticket · #12 05-17-2009, 01:04 PM

Todd, I�m done elaborating to you I have said my peace on this thing now like 10 times.

If you�re cool with Kevin and supportive of him and his so called lie to make Scott Elkins and himself feel better after the forum wasn�t a 100% in favor of his so called proof that Scott�s �underprint� was legit great knock yourself out guy.

Hopefully Scott Elkins is all better now Kevin and Scott go bowling this weekend mission accomplished?

I�m however not so cool with folks who pretend to be a supportive part of a community and privatively talk about having already defrauded members and have plans to continue to defraud other members of the same community that welcomed them just because he has an axe to grind.

I don�t support known card doctors bragging about screwing folk�s with doctored cards pretty simple policy for me.

It�s clear we disagree on this that's ok guy.

But I guarantee you Todd you won�t see any offline emails from me where I brag and lie to Jeff Lichtman to make Jeff and I feel better about screwing you with altered cards because we disagree.

Think about how ridiculous and farfetched that sounds.

I get upset at folks from time to time all people do�do I ever in an email admit to fraudulent and illegal acts to one person to make myself feel better about it�uhh no.

Cheers,

John

Peter_Spaeth · #13 05-17-2009, 01:13 PM

Jim I thought they had reinvented themselves yet again and were opening up in Iowa of all places? EDIT TO ADD As to how to reconcile what we all saw from GAI with Mike Baker's expertise, well, one could speculate.