The second and third greatest knuckleball pitchers of all time?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Phil Niekro pitched 5404.0 innings over 24 years to the age of 48 though and retired with a lifetime ERA of 3.35.



Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 2254.1 innings over 21 years to the age of 49 and retired with a lifetime ERA of 2,52.

What makes the comparison tough is that Wilhelm didn't break into the major leagues until the age of 29 while Niekro started at the age of 25. Moreover Niekro started in 716 games while Wilhelm started in only 52 games.

If memory serves, Wilhelm hit a home run in his very first game and never hit another.

[packs]

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

Availability is valuable.

He also usually led the league in innings pitched...by a lot.

...and the difference between him and the #10 guy was a huge gulf. Usually around a 100 innings. Sometimes even more. That's like 11 Extra complete games a season.

I also believe Atlanta was considered a hitter's paradise during those days, so that would have helped his overall value also.

[nat]

Also remember that those Braves teams were really bad. That he led the league in wins while pitching for the 1979 Braves is pretty impressive.

[packs]

Wow yeah looks like Phil accounted for almost a third of all the games the Braves won in 1979.

He had such an interesting career by the numbers. So many innings, so many wins, so much WAR and then the other end with the walks and home runs and seeming so hittable sometimes.

The knuckle is cool. He gave up 482 total home runs which is fourth all time. I was very surprised to see only Jamie Moyer and Robin Roberts have given up over 500 home runs. Roberts was a surprising name I didn't realize he got hamered so much. Even in his prime while he was winning 23 games he gave up 41 homers.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by packs

Wow yeah looks like Phil accounted for almost a third of all the games the Braves won in 1979.

He had such an interesting career by the numbers. So many innings, so many wins, so much WAR and then the other end with the walks and home runs and seeming so hittable sometimes.

The knuckle is cool. He gave up 482 total home runs which is fourth all time. I was very surprised to see only Jamie Moyer and Robin Roberts have given up over 500 home runs. Roberts was a surprising name I didn't realize he got hamered so much. Even in his prime while he was winning 23 games he gave up 41 homers.

In defence of Phil Niekro he had to end up giving up a lot of everything because he pitched so many innings over so many years. But it's interesting to look at specifically those two years where he recorded his highest totals for innings pitched.

In 1978 at the age of 39 his record was 19-18 on an Atlanta Braves team that was 69-93. Niekro pitched 334 1/3 innings in 44 appearances which included 42 starts with 22 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of only 2.88 while pitching an average of almost 7 2/3 innings per appearance!

In 1979 at the age of 40 his record was 21-20 on an Atlanta Braves team that was 66-94. Niekro pitched 342 innings in 44 starts with 23 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of 3.39 while pitching an average of over 7 2/3 innings per appearance!

Niekro was great in 1978 and 1979. The Braves didn't have much more going for them than Phil Niekro in those two years.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Niekro was great in 1978 and 1979. The Braves didn't have much more going for them than Joe Niekro in those two years.

Not sure if you mentioned Joe on purpose or by mistake, but it's funny that Phil's younger brother has been over-looked completely in this thread.

Not the workhorse Phil or Wilbur Wood was, probably because he didn't use the knuckleball exclusively, and played on teams with other good pitchers, but he did use it quite a bit.

Joe had a really nice run with the Astros from '77 to '84, and I say this knowing it's a bit disingenuous to compare pitchers of then from today, but Joe has more career Complete Game Shutouts then present day workhorse Justin Verlander has Complete Games.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

It's because he pitched so damn much. WAR seems to reward that. Look at Wilbur Wood's big seasons.

[frankbmd]

Gus Triandos employed an oversized mitt when catching Wilhelm.

Bob Uecker's advice on catching a knuckle ball was

'Wait until it stops rolling and then pick it up"

In his prime Wilbur Wood pitched as a starter every third day for the Pale Hose in the early seventies.

This doesn't merit another thread, but the eephus pitch should be included in any discussion of fringe pitches.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

This doesn't merit another thread, but the eephus pitch should be included in any discussion of fringe pitches.

The knuckleball though isn't a fringe pitch. Any pitcher without one in his repertoire is deficient in my book and should be sent down to the minors to improve his craft.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Gus Triandos employed an oversized mitt when catching Wilhelm.

Bob Uecker's advice on catching a knuckle ball was

'Wait until it stops rolling and then pick it up"

In his prime Wilbur Wood pitched as a starter every third day for the Pale Hose in the early seventies.

This doesn't merit another thread, but the eephus pitch should be included in any discussion of fringe pitches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JNLBAMmtUk