The second and third greatest knuckleball pitchers of all time?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by packs

Phil won a lot of games but he also led the league in losses four years in a row and retired with an ERA+ of 115.

Phil Niekro pitched 5404.0 innings over 24 years to the age of 48 though and retired with a lifetime ERA of 3.35.

Originally Posted by packs

I would take Hoyt Wilhelm for my team. Guy was an unheralded beast and would have a case for being the highest paid pitcher in the game today if he were starting his career right now.

In the age of the opener and long relief man, who wouldn't empty the bank for Hoyt Wilhelm?

Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 2254.1 innings over 21 years to the age of 49 and retired with a lifetime ERA of 2,52.

What makes the comparison tough is that Wilhelm didn't break into the major leagues until the age of 29 while Niekro started at the age of 25. Moreover Niekro started in 716 games while Wilhelm started in only 52 games.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Phil Niekro pitched 5404.0 innings over 24 years to the age of 48 though and retired with a lifetime ERA of 3.35.



Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 2254.1 innings over 21 years to the age of 49 and retired with a lifetime ERA of 2,52.

What makes the comparison tough is that Wilhelm didn't break into the major leagues until the age of 29 while Niekro started at the age of 25. Moreover Niekro started in 716 games while Wilhelm started in only 52 games.

Hard to play the what if game but the one time the leash was off Hoyt and he was allowed to start and pitch as much as he wanted, he threw 226 innings and led the league in both ERA and ERA+.

He was also 36 years old at the time.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by packs

Hard to play the what if game but the one time the leash was off Hoyt and he was allowed to start and pitch as much as he wanted, he threw 226 innings and led the league in both ERA and ERA+.

He was also 36 years old at the time.

Yes indeed! In 1959 with Paul Richards managing the Orioles, Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 226 innings in 32 appearances including 27 starts and 13 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of only 2.19 while pitching an average of over seven innings per appearance!

[steve B]

I'm not sure how the others were teamwise, but Wakefield was very different.

Signed an auto renewing one year contract that was a decent deal for both him and the team. Only modified at his request after a bad season - he requested the yearly pay be decreased since he felt his age and abilities were not as valuable.

At least one time had good stats until a week where neither the starters of relievers were doing well. Asked to eat up innings on minimal rest so the relievers could rest even if it went badly and wrecked his stats he agreed and took a pretty bad beating for all nine innings. And just said it was what the bullpen needed so he was happy to help.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'm not sure how the others were teamwise, but Wakefield was very different.

Signed an auto renewing one year contract that was a decent deal for both him and the team. Only modified at his request after a bad season - he requested the yearly pay be decreased since he felt his age and abilities were not as valuable.

At least one time had good stats until a week where neither the starters of relievers were doing well. Asked to eat up innings on minimal rest so the relievers could rest even if it went badly and wrecked his stats he agreed and took a pretty bad beating for all nine innings. And just said it was what the bullpen needed so he was happy to help.

Now that's a player who merits the full respect of every true baseball fan! Tim Wakefield certainly gets mine.

Wakefield's best year may have been in 1995 which was fairly early in his career. In that year he pitched 195 1/3 innings in 27 starts for the Boston Red Sox with 6 complete games. He posted an ERA of only 2.95 while pitching an average of almost 7 1/3 innings per appearance! It was in 2005 though at the age of 38 that he logged the most work pitching a total of 225 1/3 innings in 33 starts which was just over 6 2/3 innings per start with a respectable ERA of 4.15.

[Balticfox]

It's a little known fact that Warren Spahn rejuvenated his career at the age of 42 in 1963 by adding a knuckleball to his bag of tricks. Spahn went 23-7 for the Milwaukee Braves that year thus matching his career best W-L mark. He posted an ERA of only 2.60 in 33 starts with 22 complete games! The 259 2/3 innings he pitched work out to an average of nearly 8 per game.

Here are scans of my two Warren Spahn cards:





I also have his 1963 Salada Baseball Coin and his 1964 Topps Baseball Coins.

[Balticfox]

Sadly R.A. Dickey isn't getting any love in this thread. But he's the only knuckleballer to have won the Cy Young Award when he went 20-6 with an E.R.A. of 2.73 for the New York Mets in 2012. He pitched 233 2/3 innings that year in 33 starts with 5 complete games and one other appearance where he closed out the game which means he pitched about 7 innings per start.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Phil Niekro pitched 5404.0 innings over 24 years to the age of 48 though and retired with a lifetime ERA of 3.35.



Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 2254.1 innings over 21 years to the age of 49 and retired with a lifetime ERA of 2,52.

What makes the comparison tough is that Wilhelm didn't break into the major leagues until the age of 29 while Niekro started at the age of 25. Moreover Niekro started in 716 games while Wilhelm started in only 52 games.

If memory serves, Wilhelm hit a home run in his very first game and never hit another.

[packs]

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

Availability is valuable.

He also usually led the league in innings pitched...by a lot.

...and the difference between him and the #10 guy was a huge gulf. Usually around a 100 innings. Sometimes even more. That's like 11 Extra complete games a season.

I also believe Atlanta was considered a hitter's paradise during those days, so that would have helped his overall value also.

[nat]

Also remember that those Braves teams were really bad. That he led the league in wins while pitching for the 1979 Braves is pretty impressive.

[packs]

Wow yeah looks like Phil accounted for almost a third of all the games the Braves won in 1979.

He had such an interesting career by the numbers. So many innings, so many wins, so much WAR and then the other end with the walks and home runs and seeming so hittable sometimes.

The knuckle is cool. He gave up 482 total home runs which is fourth all time. I was very surprised to see only Jamie Moyer and Robin Roberts have given up over 500 home runs. Roberts was a surprising name I didn't realize he got hamered so much. Even in his prime while he was winning 23 games he gave up 41 homers.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by packs

Wow yeah looks like Phil accounted for almost a third of all the games the Braves won in 1979.

He had such an interesting career by the numbers. So many innings, so many wins, so much WAR and then the other end with the walks and home runs and seeming so hittable sometimes.

The knuckle is cool. He gave up 482 total home runs which is fourth all time. I was very surprised to see only Jamie Moyer and Robin Roberts have given up over 500 home runs. Roberts was a surprising name I didn't realize he got hamered so much. Even in his prime while he was winning 23 games he gave up 41 homers.

In defence of Phil Niekro he had to end up giving up a lot of everything because he pitched so many innings over so many years. But it's interesting to look at specifically those two years where he recorded his highest totals for innings pitched.

In 1978 at the age of 39 his record was 19-18 on an Atlanta Braves team that was 69-93. Niekro pitched 334 1/3 innings in 44 appearances which included 42 starts with 22 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of only 2.88 while pitching an average of almost 7 2/3 innings per appearance!

In 1979 at the age of 40 his record was 21-20 on an Atlanta Braves team that was 66-94. Niekro pitched 342 innings in 44 starts with 23 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of 3.39 while pitching an average of over 7 2/3 innings per appearance!

Niekro was great in 1978 and 1979. The Braves didn't have much more going for them than Phil Niekro in those two years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

It's because he pitched so damn much. WAR seems to reward that. Look at Wilbur Wood's big seasons.

[frankbmd]

Gus Triandos employed an oversized mitt when catching Wilhelm.

Bob Uecker's advice on catching a knuckle ball was

'Wait until it stops rolling and then pick it up"

In his prime Wilbur Wood pitched as a starter every third day for the Pale Hose in the early seventies.

This doesn't merit another thread, but the eephus pitch should be included in any discussion of fringe pitches.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

This doesn't merit another thread, but the eephus pitch should be included in any discussion of fringe pitches.

The knuckleball though isn't a fringe pitch. Any pitcher without one in his repertoire is deficient in my book and should be sent down to the minors to improve his craft.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Gus Triandos employed an oversized mitt when catching Wilhelm.

Bob Uecker's advice on catching a knuckle ball was

'Wait until it stops rolling and then pick it up"

In his prime Wilbur Wood pitched as a starter every third day for the Pale Hose in the early seventies.

This doesn't merit another thread, but the eephus pitch should be included in any discussion of fringe pitches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JNLBAMmtUk